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Justin Verlander 2012

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  • #16
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Verlander was excellent in 2011, but the season is already becoming one of the most overrated ever. Of course this has everything to do with him inexplicably winning the MVP award last season, but if put into perspective, it was not an 'all time great' season by any stretch of the imagination.

    Just looking back a few years, I'm not convinced Verlander's 2011 was better than

    Greinke's 2009
    Halladay or Kershaw's 2011 plus some other Halladay seasons
    Several Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez seasons in the early part of the decade
    A few Johan Santana seasons
    Cliff Lee's 2008
    etc....

    And yet none of these seasons came particularly close to winning the MVP award.
    LOLOLOLOLOL

    Verlander's season is easily better than any Grenkie Halladay Santana Lee or Kershaw season.

    Verlander's season is better than any non Pedro/Maddux/Johnson/Clemens of the last 20 years

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by BondsOverBabe View Post
      LOLOLOLOLOL

      Verlander's season is easily better than any Grenkie Halladay Santana Lee or Kershaw season.

      Verlander's season is better than any non Pedro/Maddux/Johnson/Clemens of the last 20 years
      verlanders season is better than it looks because of the innings pitched. I would even say it is better than most of Pedro's seasons because Pedro usually threw only about 200 or less. But still Clemens had one season with more war (10.3 to 8.6), Pedro had one higher (10.1) and maddux had one higher 8.8). So they had better seasons but it's not like they had multiple better seasons. Verlanders season is not alone but it matches pretty well.

      BTW another 130!! Pitch complete game. This time he wins despite bases loaded but still...
      Might be good for his war but maybe not for his health.
      I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by dominik View Post
        verlanders season is better than it looks because of the innings pitched. I would even say it is better than most of Pedro's seasons because Pedro usually threw only about 200 or less. But still Clemens had one season with more war (10.3 to 8.6), Pedro had one higher (10.1) and maddux had one higher 8.8). So they had better seasons but it's not like they had multiple better seasons. Verlanders season is not alone but it matches pretty well.

        BTW another 130!! Pitch complete game. This time he wins despite bases loaded but still...
        Might be good for his war but maybe not for his health.
        He's a highly successful major league pitcher. One jam is not going to do him in.
        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
        Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
        Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
        Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
        Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by BondsOverBabe View Post
          LOLOLOLOLOL

          Verlander's season is easily better than any Grenkie Halladay Santana Lee or Kershaw season.

          Verlander's season is better than any non Pedro/Maddux/Johnson/Clemens of the last 20 years
          "LOLOLOLOLOL"

          How about making a reasoned argument instead of laughing like a hyena and making blanket statements.

          Greinke pitched 21 fewer innings but beat him in ERA plus 205 to 170. Yeah Greinke's season was definitely better.Greinke could have pitched like AJ Burnett for those 21 innings and he'd still have a better season.
          Last edited by GiambiJuice; 04-17-2012, 08:54 AM.
          My top 10 players:

          1. Babe Ruth
          2. Barry Bonds
          3. Ty Cobb
          4. Ted Williams
          5. Willie Mays
          6. Alex Rodriguez
          7. Hank Aaron
          8. Honus Wagner
          9. Lou Gehrig
          10. Mickey Mantle

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by dominik View Post
            I don't really understand why managers still let pitchers pitch complete games if nothing is on the line.

            yeah 9 out of 10 times verlander wins this but even if he does this takes a lot of gas out of him needed for the postseason. I hate this old school managers who let their ace throw 110 pitches (not in this game but often happens) in such games just because it is old school.
            There have been more injuries with pitch limits than before them, plus they pitch in between starts in bullpen sessions which is ludicrous to me. If a pitcher is on fire and your ace, you will win with him more often than relieving him with a subpar pitcher.

            You gave me a good laugh on saying old school managers let them pitch 110 pitches though....150 pitch outings where more than norm back in the day

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
              "LOLOLOLOLOL"

              How about making a reasoned argument instead of laughing like a hyena and making blanket statements.

              Greinke pitched 21 fewer innings but beat him in ERA plus 205 to 170. Yeah Greinke's season was definitely better.Greinke could have pitched like AJ Burnett for those 21 innings and he'd still have a better season.
              lol so ERA plus is the end all be all stat for Pitchers? Its not even close Verlander's 2011 season shyts all over Greinke's 2009 season

              The only non Maddux/Pedro/Johnson/Clemens season of the last 20 years that might also be better was Kevin Brown's 96 season and maybe if we stretch Glavine's 98 season was comparable with Verlander last year
              Last edited by BondsOverBabe; 04-17-2012, 10:51 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by BondsOverBabe View Post
                lol so ERA plus is the end all be all stat for Pitchers? Its not even close Verlander's 2011 season shyts all over Greinke's 2009 season.

                The only non Maddux/Pedro/Johnson/Clemens season of the last 20 years that might also be better was Kevin Brown's 96 season and maybe if we stretch Glavine's 98 season was comparable with Verlander last year
                Very mature. I hope you get banned.

                If you value 21 extra innings over 35 points in ERA+, that's your prerogative. It's a defensible position, I guess. At least try to defend your position instead of making childish comments like "LOLOLOLOLOL" laced with profanity, and not a single statistic or anecdote to support your opinion. Why would you join a site like this, just to ridicule people with whom you disagree?
                My top 10 players:

                1. Babe Ruth
                2. Barry Bonds
                3. Ty Cobb
                4. Ted Williams
                5. Willie Mays
                6. Alex Rodriguez
                7. Hank Aaron
                8. Honus Wagner
                9. Lou Gehrig
                10. Mickey Mantle

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                  Very mature. I hope you get banned.

                  If you value 21 extra innings over 35 points in ERA+, that's your prerogative. It's a defensible position, I guess. At least try to defend your position instead of making childish comments like "LOLOLOLOLOL" laced with profanity, and not a single statistic or anecdote to support your opinion. Why would you join a site like this, just to ridicule people with whom you disagree?
                  actually it's closer than you think.

                  Using a raw ERA calculation greinke has a small edge.

                  let's asume a league average runs of 4.5 (which is reasonable because the reliever that replaces him is quite likely average).
                  that would mean 10.5 runs for the 21 IP. greinke allowed 55 ER in that season. add the 10.5 runs and you get to 65.5 runs for 250 innings.

                  65.5*9/250=2.36

                  verlanders ERA was 2.40 so it was worse but not much. the gap gets a little larger because of the park factor but it's not like it is a blowout.

                  WAR reflects that: verlander 8.6 and greinke 9.0

                  greinkes season was better but not extremely much.
                  I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dominik View Post
                    actually it's closer than you think.

                    Using a raw ERA calculation greinke has a small edge.

                    let's asume a league average runs of 4.5 (which is reasonable because the reliever that replaces him is quite likely average).
                    that would mean 10.5 runs for the 21 IP. greinke allowed 55 ER in that season. add the 10.5 runs and you get to 65.5 runs for 250 innings.

                    65.5*9/250=2.36

                    verlanders ERA was 2.40 so it was worse but not much. the gap gets a little larger because of the park factor but it's not like it is a blowout.

                    WAR reflects that: verlander 8.6 and greinke 9.0

                    greinkes season was better but not extremely much.
                    Very solid research, Dom, but I never said it wasn't close. I agree that they are very close but that Greinke's season is slightly better. If Verlander's was better it certainly isn't laughably so, as BondsOverBabe indicates, and it certainly doesn't "shyt all over Greinke's 2009 season".
                    Last edited by GiambiJuice; 04-17-2012, 12:18 PM.
                    My top 10 players:

                    1. Babe Ruth
                    2. Barry Bonds
                    3. Ty Cobb
                    4. Ted Williams
                    5. Willie Mays
                    6. Alex Rodriguez
                    7. Hank Aaron
                    8. Honus Wagner
                    9. Lou Gehrig
                    10. Mickey Mantle

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                      Very solid research, Dom, but I never said it wasn't close. I agree that they are very close but that Greinke's season is slightly better. If Verlander's was better it certainly isn't laughably so, as BondsOverBabe indicates, and it certainly doesn't "shyt all over Greinke's 2009 season".
                      yes that is correct. his statement was really overboard.
                      I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Verlander pitched 22 more innings and gave up 21 less hits, I don't think its close. Especially when you consider the terrible fielding of the Tigers and that Verlander was doing it with a competitive team that was playing for something(which while terrible overrated by the media and Yankee fans is actually worth something)
                        Last edited by BondsOverBabe; 04-17-2012, 02:30 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by BondsOverBabe View Post
                          Verlander pitched 22 more innings and gave up 21 less hits, I don't think its close. Especially when you consider the terrible fielding of the Tigers and that Verlander was doing it with a competitive team that was playing for something(which while terrible overrated by the media and Yankee fans is actually worth something)
                          21 less hits....and more than twice as many home runs (24 for Verlander vs. 11 for Greinke).
                          My top 10 players:

                          1. Babe Ruth
                          2. Barry Bonds
                          3. Ty Cobb
                          4. Ted Williams
                          5. Willie Mays
                          6. Alex Rodriguez
                          7. Hank Aaron
                          8. Honus Wagner
                          9. Lou Gehrig
                          10. Mickey Mantle

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                            21 less hits....and more than twice as many home runs (24 for Verlander vs. 11 for Greinke).
                            I think verlander is a pitcher that is not very good in preventing HRs. His fastball is very fast but it is also extremely straight without a lot of movement. it really lives on his velocity. It is hard to hit of course but if you are quick enough or cheat a little you can make clean contact and send it a long way.
                            I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by dominik View Post
                              I think verlander is a pitcher that is not very good in preventing HRs. His fastball is very fast but it is also extremely straight without a lot of movement. it really lives on his velocity. It is hard to hit of course but if you are quick enough or cheat a little you can make clean contact and send it a long way.
                              A good observation dominik. Verlander is kind of like Robin Roberts in this regard. Roberts threw extremely hard but gave up tons of HRs, 505 home runs in his career.
                              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                                A good observation dominik. Verlander is kind of like Robin Roberts in this regard. Roberts threw extremely hard but gave up tons of HRs, 505 home runs in his career.
                                randy johnson also I think. doesn't mean you aren't a great pitcher, just not good at one skill.
                                I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                                Comment

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