Roger Clemens: Should he be found guilty for lying to a Congressional Committee?

[Bill Burgess]

When Roger Clemens testified under oath before a Congressional Committee on February 13, 2008, with respect to his using steroids, he swore he never used steroids.

But even his best baseball pal, team-mate Andy Pettitte, said that Roger asked him about steroids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Clemens

Question:

1. Do you think Roger will be found guilty for perjury in his second trial?
2. Do you think he SHOULD be found guilty?

We have seen a lot of celebrity trials in recent years.

1. OJ Simpson's Trial of the Century. 1995. Acquitted.
2. OJ Simpson Civil Trial, 1997 - Wrongful death. Convicted, ordered to pay $33m. Has never paid a dime, the laws protecting pensions.
2. Robert Blake - accused of murder of wife Bonnie Lee Blakely, 2005. Acquitted. Later found guilty of wrongful death in civil trial. Ordered to pay $30, later reduced to $15m. He declared bankruptcy.
3. Michael Jackson - accused of molesting a minor boy, 2005. Acquitted.
4. Phil Spector - accused of murdering Lana Clarkson. Jury hung in first trial, 2007; convicted in 2nd trial, 2008-09. Sentenced to 19 years to life.
5. Barry Bonds - accused of perjury under oath before Grand Jury. Found guilty in 2011 of obstruction of justice and slapped on the wrist, no prison time.
6. Rae Carruth - accused of hiring someone to kill his pregnant girlfriend - The Carolina Panthers' footballer was convicted and serving his sentence. Found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, 2001, sentenced to at least 18 years. Projected parole date, October 22, 2018.
7. OJ Simpson - accused of stealing football memorabilia in a Las Vegas hotel room. He arrived with a small group, two had guns. He claimed the memorabilia was his, 2008. - convicted, serving 33 year sentence. Will be eligible for parole in 2017, but may never get out on parole.

[Bothrops Atrox]

The poll asked "will he be indited" but the options say "should he be..." Very different things.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I don't think one can just assume steroid abuse based on career results. Some might use steroids, but decline normally anyway. They say that steroids assist the most those who work the hardest. Now normally, you would think Clemens would have been assisted the best, like Bonds.

But that is too simplistic. Too many other things can cloud the issue. Someone might have had weight issues to negate the steroids bump. Maybe the steroids might mask the steepness of the decline.

I bet that Roger wished his trainer had been Greg Anderson! Greg Anderson was either a naive fool, or the most loyal trainer who ever lived. Or maybe the most under-the-table paid-off smart guy ever.

I think thats being missed here. The fact that some possible users do not show a spike in performance is no proof that they are or were not users. Just common sense that all users reap different degrees of a benefit from a chemical, some maybe not at all.
Maybe that just average player might perform below average without using and once again there have to be some users who perform no better as users.

[fenrir]

I think thats being missed here. The fact that some possible users do not show a spike in performance is no proof that they are or were not users. Just common sense that all users reap different degrees of a benefit from a chemical, some maybe not at all.
Maybe that just average player might perform below average without using and once again there have to be some users who perform no better as users.

I think in general most athletes benefit from steroids, though I agree that there are exceptions. You have to remember one huge benefit of steroids is faster recovery from injuries and work outs. Many take steroids just to allow them to stay on the field for much longer than they other wise would have. That's a huge benefit because it allows a player or pitcher to last longer at a dominant level, and reach numbers they wouldn't have reached with out steroids helping them play longer.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Agree, in my Post #17, I spoke on that, it could allow a player to maintain a high level over a longer period of time, of course a benefit for the user... To counter what some say, Roger never showed a spike, that does not indicate he was not a user

You are absolutely right. The issue is, that just like weight gain, a spike in performance is no clear indicator orf usage. Nor is a lack-of-spike a clear indication of lack-of-usage. My point is that people are using faulty eye-ball tests to determine who is and is not a user. I bet we would be shocked at who everybody thinks is, but is not and who gets a free pass but used.

Does that mean that I think Clemens did use? Well...

Of course this discussion is about perjury, not PED usage itself. If Bonds got off easily, then Clemens will get off as easy if not easier. People do not hate Clemens with the same intense, burning hatred that they do with Bonds.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I don't know if we are all talking in circles (or more likely it's just me talking that way), but I agree with you.

Having said that, I draw this distinction in the case of Manny, we have public test results, in the case of Giambi we have a public admission, in the case of Bonds we have clear statistical anomalies plus several peripheral witnesses (one quite credible.)

In the case of Clemens, we only have McNamee.

The difference between Bagwell and Clemens is McNamee. I'm not trying to say Clemens did not use PED's, I'm just saying we can look at the evidence and draw some distinctions.

The evidence and why was it saved, could it have been tampered with, defense can make some hay with that.
But, I just can't see McNamee saying he injected Clemens and lying about that under oath, what would he have to gain and also risk perjury. Of the three he claimed to inject Clemens is the only one to challenge McNamee's claim.

That makes me lean towards McNamee tellling the truth but the case should not hinge on that alone. But, with that said
I think some jurors will judge the case on the reliabilty of the evidence and not on McNamee risking perjury.

I don't recall the testimony of that hearing but I seem to recall Clemens having a problem with the sequence of some events, appeared to change some stories.

I think he did use I still think he walks.

[dl4060]

in the case of Bonds we have clear statistical anomalies plus several peripheral witnesses (one quite credible.)


.

With Bonds, we also have the trial admission that he used. His lawyer admitted (I believe, someone can check if they want, I remember this being discussed in this forum) that Barry had used the cream, or the clear. The attorney admitted use, he just claimed Barry did not know they were steroids.

[fenrir]

The evidence and why was it saved, could it have been tampered with, defense can make some hay with that.
But, I just can't see McNamee saying he injected Clemens and lying about that under oath, what would he have to gain and also risk perjury. Of the three he claimed to inject Clemens is the only one to challenge McNamee's claim.

That makes me lean towards McNamee tellling the truth but the case should not hinge on that alone. But, with that said
I think some jurors will judge the case on the reliabilty of the evidence and not on McNamee risking perjury.

I don't recall the testimony of that hearing but I seem to recall Clemens having a problem with the sequence of some events, appeared to change some stories.

I think he did use I still think he walks.

Clemens will definitely walk, but in the court of public opinion, he's pretty much toast. What matters the most in the end is how the fans perceive him and his accomplishments.

[ol' aches and pains]

Clemens will definitely walk, but in the court of public opinion, he's pretty much toast. What matters the most in the end is how the fans perceive him and his accomplishments.

And that's fine with me, I don't want him to go to prison, even a country club prison. My tax dollars could be spent more productively. I just want his reputation to be sufficiently sullied that he doesn't end up in the Hall of Fame somehow.

[Rich the Giants fan]

Not that we have any access to all the information the jury does, nor do I believe that anyone here has been watching every minute of the trial, so I don't believe any of us really can say, but I can't see how they can convict him based on heresay testimony of a known liar and with evidence that cannot possibly surivive scrutiny. I mean I'm supposed to believe McNamee just held on to that evidence for years without any chain of command and I'm supposed to just believe it wasn't tampered with?

I'm sorry, but this doesn't even come close to reliable evidence.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Not that we have any access to all the information the jury does, nor do I believe that anyone here has been watching every minute of the trial, so I don't believe any of us really can say, but I can't see how they can convict him based on heresay testimony of a known liar and with evidence that cannot possibly surivive scrutiny. I mean I'm supposed to believe McNamee just held on to that evidence for years without any chain of command and I'm supposed to just believe it wasn't tampered with?

I'm sorry, but this doesn't even come close to reliable evidence.

I agree it may have been tampered with.Tampered or not I can see reliability of that sample as being a problem for the prosecution.

As far as McNamee being a liar, even a liar at times can be telling the truth.
If any watched that hearing, it was not Mcnamee with all the conflicting stories, Clemens as the guy having problems with dates and events.
I think he used but I see him escaping this one if the case does hinge on that evidence alone. We never know, the prosecution may come up with more.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Hank Aaron - 1971 age 37 - 194, best of his career

Ted Williams - 1957 age 38 - 233 (his best was 235 in 1941)

This has been brought up before and it's obvious Aaron and Williams are blips compared to Barry's explosion and on top of that Barry didn't just have one year eruption. He maintained off the chart numbers for 3 or 4 seasons.
Aaron and Williams, not even close to what Barry did.

Am I reading you wrong, maybe my reply does not fit, were you referreing to Zack Wheat.

[OmartgSS]

It's hard to believe the court system let's date rape slip thru their fingers just so they can bask in the Clemens limelight.

[metfan13]

This has been brought up before and it's obvious Aaron and Williams are blips compared to Barry's explosion and on top of that Barry didn't just have one year eruption. He maintained off the chart numbers for 3 or 4 seasons.
Aaron and Williams, not even close to what Barry did.

Am I reading you wrong, maybe my reply does not fit, were you referreing to Zack Wheat.

I was using it to back up Wheat and the posters claim that Wheat was unique. It happens with HoF players.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I was using it to back up Wheat and the posters claim that Wheat was unique. It happens with HoF players.

OK, got it.