Next knuckleballer

[metfan13]

Don't think there's one on the horizon, but watching Dickey pitch and seeing him do things that other knuckleballers couldn't do, makes me wonder if this can be taken further.

Since we now see the effects of the "fast" knuckleball I wonder if there is a max speed that it could be effective.

What would happen if you took a youngish hard thrower who can't master secondary pitchers and whose fastball at 93-94 is kind of straight and taught him the knuckleball. So instead of an older soft tosser or sore armed guy you have someone who can really bring it?

Would a knuckleball work at 87, or 90? If so, would it be hittable?

[dominik]

Don't think there's one on the horizon, but watching Dickey pitch and seeing him do things that other knuckleballers couldn't do, makes me wonder if this can be taken further.

Since we now see the effects of the "fast" knuckleball I wonder if there is a max speed that it could be effective.

What would happen if you took a youngish hard thrower who can't master secondary pitchers and whose fastball at 93-94 is kind of straight and taught him the knuckleball. So instead of an older soft tosser or sore armed guy you have someone who can really bring it?

Would a knuckleball work at 87, or 90? If so, would it be hittable?

the faster a knuckle is thrown the more it will knuckle. in fact you have to throw a knuckle at least at 60 to make it wobble. thus "kid knuckleballs" don't work.

however I don't thin it is possible to throw a knuckle at 87 since you get less wrist snap. I also think most pitchers fear to throw a knuckle because they think it ruins their motion.

but who knows. the same was thought of the cutter too. I have heard an interview with an 80s pitcher and he said they knuew the cutter and it's effectiveness but were reluctant to throw it because they feared it would hurt their FB velocity and control by altering the motion. but now every pitcher throws a cutter. maybe we will see the knuckle as a secondary pitch more.

however very few players get the knuckle to work.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The problem is that teams have never and probably will never will actively scout knuckleballers in high school or college. I wonder how many potential knuckleballers never get a change to play pro ball because major league teams are biased against them?

http://projectprospect.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6490

[VIBaseball]

very few players get the knuckle to work.

Actually, a lot of people (including non-pitchers) can get the knuckler to work.
It's throwing it consistently -- without the bit of spin that turns it into a meatball -- and for strikes that makes a successful big-league knuckleball pitcher.
As knuckleballers get up in age, fielding their position becomes an issue too.

[VIBaseball]

Don't think there's one on the horizon, but watching Dickey pitch and seeing him do things that other knuckleballers couldn't do, makes me wonder if this can be taken further.

Since we now see the effects of the "fast" knuckleball I wonder if there is a max speed that it could be effective.

What would happen if you took a youngish hard thrower who can't master secondary pitchers and whose fastball at 93-94 is kind of straight and taught him the knuckleball. So instead of an older soft tosser or sore armed guy you have someone who can really bring it?

Would a knuckleball work at 87, or 90? If so, would it be hittable?

The way the knuckler is thrown doesn't really lend itself to being a pitch that you can "bring." A great description of Hoyt Wilhelm was that he looked liked he was throwing laundry into a hamper.

Knuckleballers as a rule are marginal pitchers who can't make it with "stuff." In the '80s, the Texas Rangers tried an experiment, seeking to convert four guys of this type at Double-A. The most successful of them was a guy named Rick Odekirk, who made it as high as Triple-A but never had great numbers even in the minors. He was also with the A's as a replacement player in 1995.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Knuckleballers as a rule are marginal pitchers who can't make it with "stuff." In the '80s, the Texas Rangers tried an experiment, seeking to convert four guys of this type at Double-A. The most successful of them was a guy named Rick Odekirk, who made it as high as Triple-A but never had great numbers even in the minors. He was also with the A's as a replacement player in 1995.

I'm not sure this proves anything. How much time did the Rangers give these four prospects? How much opportunity did he get to develop their knuckleballs? According to the book The Diamond Appraised both authors Craig Wright and Tom House, then a Ranger pitching coach, agreed that the Rangers didn't really give the knuckleball development project the best shot.

[milladrive]

One thing I think being overlooked here is that Dickey is an extremely intelligent person. Teams cannot simply pick prospects and expect them to excel with a knuckler. The pitchers need not only talent, but also extraordinarily high I.Q's.

[PlanetZoltan]

One thing I think being overlooked here is that Dickey is an extremely intelligent person. Teams cannot simply pick prospects and expect them to excel with a knuckler. The pitchers need not only talent, but also extraordinarily high I.Q's.

What does having an extraordinary IQ have to do with throwing a knuckleball?

[VIBaseball]

I'm not sure this proves anything. How much time did the Rangers give these four prospects? How much opportunity did he get to develop their knuckleballs? According to the book The Diamond Appraised both authors Craig Wright and Tom House, then a Ranger pitching coach, agreed that the Rangers didn't really give the knuckleball development project the best shot.

I can accept that, but my point (and the Rangers program was just one example) is that the guys who turn to the knuckler in the first place pretty much all do it as a last resort. Dickey is an example; at one time he was a "stuff" pitcher, but he was on the margins when he converted. Wakefield: converted first baseman. Joe Niekro: only became successful after focusing on the knuckler. Steve Sparks: converted in Double A because his stuff wasn't good enough. The list goes on.

Something you used to see, but not so much any more, are guys who mix the knuckler in as part of their repertoire. These days it seems to be all or nothing. Tom Candiotti is the only recent one I can think of who used additional pitches to a greater extent.

[VIBaseball]

What does having an extraordinary IQ have to do with throwing a knuckleball?

Being a knuckleballer requires a strong mental dimension. Jim Bouton had a good line: "You need the fingers of a safecracker and the mind of a Zen Buddhist."

[milladrive]

What does having an extraordinary IQ have to do with throwing a knuckleball?

It doesn't take much intelligence and maturity to throw a knuckleball, but it takes a lot of both to master it.

Being a knuckleballer requires a strong mental dimension. Jim Bouton had a good line: "You need the fingers of a safecracker and the mind of a Zen Buddhist."

That pretty much says it. ...and says it quite well.