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  • Weaver 15-1 on way to record?

    Wow

    Another nice outing by Jered Weaver who is now 15-1.

    I believe the most wins with only 1 loss was Roy Face at 18-1 and Weaver is within range of this.

    How is a guy with the best ERA, best W-L record, best WHIP (second in hits allowed, 4th in BB allowed) only 8th in WAR for pitchers?
    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
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  • #2
    Yeah i'm pretty shocked on that too. Maybe because he has a great offense and plays in a pitchers park? Hiroki Kurodo has a higher war. The Whitesox had Jose Quintana who recently got up to a 3.4 war. Thats a major flaw when guys like Quintana and Kurodo are looked at as having better seasons when a guy is 15-1 and in the top 3 in most pitching categorys.
    "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

    "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

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    • #3
      Roger Clemens made it to 20-1 in 2001, but he lost his last two decisions to finish 20-3.
      Baseball Junk Drawer

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      • #4
        Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
        How is a guy with the best ERA, best W-L record, best WHIP (second in hits allowed, 4th in BB allowed) only 8th in WAR for pitchers?
        Verlander, Price, and Peavy have 15+ more innings. And WAR says that Weaver has been helped out a lot by his defense, unlike Sale, who WAR says has been hurt a lot. Weaver gets his WAR docked a little for pitching in a pitcher's park too. So most of the WAR vs. perception gap can be explained by the 2-3 starts he missed, his park, and the great defense behind him. It is up to the individual to decide what to make of WARs defensive components and what replacement (playing time) baseline to use. Or what to do with park effects for that matter.

        I am not saying that it is right, but that is why. WAR cares only about the number of runs allowed - so how he prevents his runs (say his WHIP, etc.) is not relevant to the WAR discussion. Obviously WAR doesn't care about his W-L either, for what it is worth.

        Again, please disagree, but don't shoot the messenger.
        Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 08-07-2012, 07:48 AM.
        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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        • #5
          Originally posted by chicagowhitesox1173 View Post
          Yeah i'm pretty shocked on that too. Maybe because he has a great offense and plays in a pitchers park? Hiroki Kurodo has a higher war. The Whitesox had Jose Quintana who recently got up to a 3.4 war. Thats a major flaw when guys like Quintana and Kurodo are looked at as having better seasons when a guy is 15-1 and in the top 3 in most pitching categorys.
          White Sox pitchers are getting two big boosts...the defensive range behind them is poor and the pitch in a hitter's park. Kuroda also has 2 more starts worth of innings.
          Quintata is getting a leveraging boost for being a reliever and doesn't belong in the conversation; it is like comparing apples to oranges.
          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

          Comment


          • #6
            Who would have predicted a Dickey/Weaver Cy Young duo?
            My top 10 players:

            1. Babe Ruth
            2. Barry Bonds
            3. Ty Cobb
            4. Ted Williams
            5. Willie Mays
            6. Alex Rodriguez
            7. Hank Aaron
            8. Honus Wagner
            9. Lou Gehrig
            10. Mickey Mantle

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            • #7
              Weaver wouldn't be crazy a pick. But who would have done a Verlander, CC, Price, Weaver pick one/Dickey duo?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                Who would have predicted a Dickey/Weaver Cy Young duo?
                The 3-time All Star already has a 5th and a 2nd place Cy finish - not too shocking, really.
                1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
                  The 3-time All Star already has a 5th and a 2nd place Cy finish - not too shocking, really.
                  True, the Dickey part of the duo is the surprising one.
                  My top 10 players:

                  1. Babe Ruth
                  2. Barry Bonds
                  3. Ty Cobb
                  4. Ted Williams
                  5. Willie Mays
                  6. Alex Rodriguez
                  7. Hank Aaron
                  8. Honus Wagner
                  9. Lou Gehrig
                  10. Mickey Mantle

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                    True, the Dickey part of the duo is the surprising one.
                    Yeah, Dickey would be surprising, but I do not think he will win.
                    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ian2813 View Post
                      Roger Clemens made it to 20-1 in 2001, but he lost his last two decisions to finish 20-3.
                      Which shows how very easily such a thing can slip away. I won't be holding my breath.
                      San Francisco Giants, World Series Champions in 2010, 2012, and 2014!!!

                      "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" ~ Albert Einstein

                      "Royals wear crowns, but Champions Kiss the Ring" ~ Jeremy Affeldt

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                        Who would have predicted a Dickey/Weaver Cy Young duo?
                        I think Johnny Cueto might just step in and snatch it away in the NL.
                        San Francisco Giants, World Series Champions in 2010, 2012, and 2014!!!

                        "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" ~ Albert Einstein

                        "Royals wear crowns, but Champions Kiss the Ring" ~ Jeremy Affeldt

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rich the Giants fan View Post
                          I think Johnny Cueto might just step in and snatch it away in the NL.
                          Yeah, Cueto would be my frontrunner as of now. As long as he doesn't kick somebody's face in, he should be okay.
                          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rich the Giants fan View Post
                            Which shows how very easily such a thing can slip away. I won't be holding my breath.
                            Just one month later and he's 16-4 and on his way to see the doctor. This is why you don't get too excited about such things when there's two months of the season to go.
                            San Francisco Giants, World Series Champions in 2010, 2012, and 2014!!!

                            "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" ~ Albert Einstein

                            "Royals wear crowns, but Champions Kiss the Ring" ~ Jeremy Affeldt

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rich the Giants fan View Post
                              Just one month later and he's 16-4 and on his way to see the doctor. This is why you don't get too excited about such things when there's two months of the season to go.
                              Is he hurt?

                              1-3 since this thread was made, but Weaver is having a very nice season, and should easily be on his way to a top 5 in Cy Young voting for the 3rd straight year.

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