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Should Pete Rose be in the Hall of Fame?

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  • #46
    The majority of living Hall of Famers were contemporaries of Pete Rose.

    There will be 83 potential voters in this year's Veterans Committee election. Provided that none of them die, there will be at least 86 in 2007 (with the additions of Boggs, Gammons and Sandberg), probably more. The same holds true for 2009, when Rose potentially be named to his first (VC) ballot.

    Of the 83 current voters, one (John McHale) will see his term expire (in 2007) before Rose would become eligible for the VC. As all the others (Hall of Famers, Spink and Frick Award winners) become serve "life" terms on the committee, we can accurately estimate the total number of VC voters in 2009. The 60 present Hall of Fame members are joined now by Boggs and Sandberg. In the 2006-2008 elections, it is likely that 4-5 additional members will be elected (Ripken, Gwynn, McGwire, Rice/Sutter, Sutter/Gossage?) That would give us 67 members of the Hall when 2009 rolls around. There are presently 8 Spink and 14 Frick Award winners. Add Gammons and 3 more writers (since they are in the habit of honoring one per year) plus 4 more broadcasters (2005-2008 recipients) and we're talking about a body of voters that includes around 96 voters assuming no one dies in the meantime.

    Here's a breakdown of how present Hall of Famers' careers overlapped the career of Pete Rose.

    7 were teammates.
    25 played a fair-to-great amount of time in the same league, against Rose.
    17 more were contemporary players who played in the American League (though some played against Rose in the World Series and in the All-Star Game.)

    That's 49 players who were competiting with or against Rose for a World Championship during his career.

    Then you've got 1 guy who managed Rose (Anderson), 3 who managed against him regularly (Berra, Schoendienst, Lasorda) and 2 more who managed in the same era, but in the other league (Lopez, Weaver). That's 6 managers who were "contemporaries" of the perennial all-star.

    Add to that Lee MacPhail, a long-time team and league official who would have seen Rose play throughout his career and you've got 56 out of 62 living Hall of Famers with a "contemporary" link to Rose.

    The ones who's careers don't criss-cross Rose's are Bobby Doerr, Bob Feller, Monte Irvin, George Kell, Ralph Kiner and Phil Rizzuto.

    Not coincidentally, these six are among the oldest living members of the Hall of Fame and, thus, are most likely to die before the 2009 election arrives (four years from now.) These men will range, in age, from 86 to 90 if some/any of them are still kickin' at that time. Furthermore, there isn't any guarantee that a living player at those ages will be healthy enough, or mentally competent enough to fill out and return a ballot in the mail.

    I'm only suggesting that the "old school with long memories" types of voters are dying out rather quickly and the vast majority of the voters are going to be people who saw Pete Rose play baseball and saw him often. I would certainly imagine that the minority of voters who are not Hall of Famers (the writers and broadcasters) will have a similar age-distribution affecting the process.

    2009 doesn't look that bad for Rose (were he removed from the ineligible list) and time is certainly on Pete's side. 2006, on the other hand, is beginning to look extremely bleak.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Chancellor
      The majority of living Hall of Famers were contemporaries of Pete Rose.

      There will be 83 potential voters in this year's Veterans Committee election. Provided that none of them die, there will be at least 86 in 2007 (with the additions of Boggs, Gammons and Sandberg), probably more. The same holds true for 2009, when Rose potentially be named to his first (VC) ballot.

      Of the 83 current voters, one (John McHale) will see his term expire (in 2007) before Rose would become eligible for the VC. As all the others (Hall of Famers, Spink and Frick Award winners) become serve "life" terms on the committee, we can accurately estimate the total number of VC voters in 2009. The 60 present Hall of Fame members are joined now by Boggs and Sandberg. In the 2006-2008 elections, it is likely that 4-5 additional members will be elected (Ripken, Gwynn, McGwire, Rice/Sutter, Sutter/Gossage?) That would give us 67 members of the Hall when 2009 rolls around. There are presently 8 Spink and 14 Frick Award winners. Add Gammons and 3 more writers (since they are in the habit of honoring one per year) plus 4 more broadcasters (2005-2008 recipients) and we're talking about a body of voters that includes around 96 voters assuming no one dies in the meantime.

      Here's a breakdown of how present Hall of Famers' careers overlapped the career of Pete Rose.

      7 were teammates.
      25 played a fair-to-great amount of time in the same league, against Rose.
      17 more were contemporary players who played in the American League (though some played against Rose in the World Series and in the All-Star Game.)

      That's 49 players who were competiting with or against Rose for a World Championship during his career.

      Then you've got 1 guy who managed Rose (Anderson), 3 who managed against him regularly (Berra, Schoendienst, Lasorda) and 2 more who managed in the same era, but in the other league (Lopez, Weaver). That's 6 managers who were "contemporaries" of the perennial all-star.

      Add to that Lee MacPhail, a long-time team and league official who would have seen Rose play throughout his career and you've got 56 out of 62 living Hall of Famers with a "contemporary" link to Rose.

      The ones who's careers don't criss-cross Rose's are Bobby Doerr, Bob Feller, Monte Irvin, George Kell, Ralph Kiner and Phil Rizzuto.

      Not coincidentally, these six are among the oldest living members of the Hall of Fame and, thus, are most likely to die before the 2009 election arrives (four years from now.) These men will range, in age, from 86 to 90 if some/any of them are still kickin' at that time. Furthermore, there isn't any guarantee that a living player at those ages will be healthy enough, or mentally competent enough to fill out and return a ballot in the mail.

      I'm only suggesting that the "old school with long memories" types of voters are dying out rather quickly and the vast majority of the voters are going to be people who saw Pete Rose play baseball and saw him often. I would certainly imagine that the minority of voters who are not Hall of Famers (the writers and broadcasters) will have a similar age-distribution affecting the process.

      2009 doesn't look that bad for Rose (were he removed from the ineligible list) and time is certainly on Pete's side. 2006, on the other hand, is beginning to look extremely bleak.
      As always, good analysis Chancellor. I would add this - Kiner would have SEEN Rose play a great deal and had a chance to interact with him through his many years of broadcasting Mets games.
      Let's rid baseball of the pestilence of the DH now and forever!

      Comment


      • #48
        do u think pete rose should be in the hall of fame?

        i think he should, i mean he is the all-time hit leader, and do u know how many players bet on games and don't get caught? some snitch told on him so he got banned.

        Comment


        • #49
          Hell yeah.....
          GO PADRES AND ANGELS ALL THE WAY IN 2008
          Strike 3 Forums/NFL Forums

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          • #50
            No

            Pete Rose is an arrogant, overrated piece of trash. He is the worst example of self promotion ever. And he STILL won't give a contrite admission or apology for the gambling thing. If he can't swallow his pride and admit what is blatantly obvious, and be contrite in his admission, then I'm not going to give him anything. He brought it upon himself so he can live with it.

            And the hits record is SO overrated in his case. The guy had the most AB's ever. He should have the hit record. His lifetime average is barely .300, and this for a guy with no power and little speed. There are plenty of .300 hitters with no power that aren't in the Hall, or don't deserve to be. If he hadn't spent the peak of his career on the Big Red Machine, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

            Comment


            • #51
              Rose has more hits than Cobb, true. But looking at these stats, can you honestly say that he is better?

              Cobb:
              ABs: 11,434
              Hits: 4,189
              AVG: .366
              RBIs: 1,937

              Rose:
              ABs: 14,053
              Hits: 4,256
              AVG: .303
              RBIs: 1,314


              BaseballBum12, your reasoning would also apply to steroid users: "Well, some people beat the tests, so forget we even know about it."
              Me, at a Boston restaurant, to a waiter:
              Are you sure the Manny Ramirez (name of burger) isn't a sloppy joe?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by flash143817
                No

                Pete Rose is an arrogant, overrated piece of trash. He is the worst example of self promotion ever. And he STILL won't give a contrite admission or apology for the gambling thing. If he can't swallow his pride and admit what is blatantly obvious, and be contrite in his admission, then I'm not going to give him anything. He brought it upon himself so he can live with it.
                I couldn't agree more. Pete Rose can go rot!!
                If he had fessed up 15 years ago, and showed any kind of contrition, he would already be in the HOF.

                Comment


                • #53
                  maybe when he is dead so he cant profit from it.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I am of the opinion that Pete Rose needs to be honored in Cooperstown for his career but also for how he dishonored the game we love.

                    The only way as a fan to have our cake and it it too is to elect Pete Rose in to the HOF the year after he dies.

                    He does not deserve the right to speak at the HOF.He just deserves to be remembered there.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Rose will have the opportunity to be elected as soon as his name is removed from baseball's "ineligible list." That ought to happen upon Rose's death.
                      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Not No Way No How

                        Every player knows the consequences of betting on baseball. Pete and his ego seemed to think that he could get away with it. That he wouldn't get caught, or if he did, that he'd get some kind of preferential treatment.

                        Rose, like Shoeless Joe are banned from MLB. Period, end of story. I have not heard any word on Mr. Jackson getting in anytime soon, even though he's been dead for 53 years.

                        I think Mr. Rose should face the same fate.
                        Ken :gt

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Without a shadow of a doubt, YES

                          He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, but back into the game as a manager, not a chance in hell.


                          and one more thing, its what you do on the field is what gets you into the game and Rose proved that with his ability to play the game, and not what he did off of it. Cobb was a murdered, he is in, Mantle was drunk sometimes before games, Ruth was a womanizer, and these guys are in, please
                          The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America is ruled by it like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again. Oh, people will come, Ray. People will most definitely come. -James Earl Jones as Terence Mann in Field Of Dreams

                          Sailors Creed

                          11 General Orders of Sentry

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Who cares about alcohol?

                            It doesn't seem like Rose should be ineligible. So what, he got caught as the skipepr, not as the player he'd go in as... a few games here and there, who really knows... but then the next player or manager thinks they can have a little wager on the game, like the old days... not like they'd get in the HOF anyway... and then if the game doesn't just erode, there could be another scandal like the Black Sox scandal.

                            Is 15 years out enough of a sentence? Maybe, but this might still be an acceptable message to all players. He's out of baseball officially.

                            The real question is, how many HOFers gambled on games before 1919?
                            (fantasy football)
                            JM: Only did that for a couple of years and then we had a conspiracy so it kind of turned me sour. Our league's commissioner, Lew Ford(notes) at the time, was doing some shady things that ... I'd rather not talk about [laughs].
                            DB: Isn't he in Japan right now?
                            JM: I don't know where Lou is right now. He's probably fleeing the authorities [laughs].

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by NationalPastime1980
                              I am of the opinion that Pete Rose needs to be honored in Cooperstown for his career but also for how he dishonored the game we love.

                              The only way as a fan to have our cake and it it too is to elect Pete Rose in to the HOF the year after he dies.

                              He does not deserve the right to speak at the HOF.He just deserves to be remembered there.
                              Pete is ALREADY remembered at the HOF -- there are a number of exhibits of Rose records and memorabilia on display at the Hall....

                              And that is enough.
                              John

                              Stan Musial Pages
                              CultureDose Media Reviews

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by NationalPastime1980
                                I am of the opinion that Pete Rose needs to be honored in Cooperstown for his career but also for how he dishonored the game we love.

                                The only way as a fan to have our cake and it it too is to elect Pete Rose in to the HOF the year after he dies.

                                He does not deserve the right to speak at the HOF.He just deserves to be remembered there.
                                As much as I am against Rose's induction into the Hall, I could agree with this idea. Put him in for his (overrated) accomplishments on the field, but don't let him have the glory of knowing it happened. That works for me.


                                On the other hand, there is no way Rose deserves to be in the HOF before Joe Jackson. Shoeless Joe was 100x the player that Rose is. Had he had the opportunity to extend his career and play in the live-ball '20s, his career numbers would be all-time great.

                                If Shoeless Joe doesn't get to be elected while he is alive, neither should Rose. And tell Rose that he can't be elected until Jackson is. Then maybe Rose would get out and promote somebody other than himself.

                                On a side note: After his retirement, Walter Johnson (arguably best pitcher ever) called Joe Jackson the best hitter he had ever seen, and this included guys such as Ruth and Cobb. I've never heard anybody call Pete Rose the best hitter they have ever seen.

                                Comment

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