Chuck Klein--you make the call

[jalbright]

This guy presents one of the hardest cases as to whether or not he's a legitimate HOFer. I'll present both sides before putting my 2 cents in, and I'll try to do it as fairly as I can:

For induction
60 Black Ink points, 15th best all-time
166 gray ink points, 63rd best all-time
48 HOF standards (average is 50)
1933 Triple Crown winner
34th best career slugging percentage, 3000 PA minimum
52nd best career average, 3000 PA minimum
2.46 MVP shares, 50th best all-time

That's a very impressive list of positives, to say the least, yet. . . .

Against induction
238 career win shares is 43rd among RF in the latest BJHA
89 win shares in his top 3 seasons is 32nd among RF in the latest BJHA
140 win shares in his best 5 consecutive seasons is 20th among RF in the latest BJHA
Only 2 of his ten most similar players list in baseball-reference.com are in the HOF, though the list also includes Dick Allen
He was only an all-star twice, though that game misses his first five seasons or so, which were among his best
Only 6486 career AB
Never received more than 30% of the BBWAA vote for HOF
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A huge reason for this divide is the impact of the Baker Bowl, which was one of the best hitter's parks in baseball history. The ink and counting stats don't adjust downward for that fact, while win shares do.

It's a heck of a close call in my mind. Add up all the categories like I do, and he comes in at 741 points, with the cutoff at 750. In the Veteran's Committee mistakes poll, only 9 of 26 voters so far have called him a mistake, but that's still more than 25%, which means those 26 voters would keep him out--but only barely.

As you may know I'm a career guy, which doesn't help Chuck. I'm largely in the Bill James camp, which hurts him even more. Add in the sim score results and the poor showing with the BBWAA, and so my coin flip goes against him, though perhaps I can be persuaded to change my mind, though my vote here is cast.

The floor is open.

[jalbright]

Jeez, I already messed up--I voted yes, when I should have voted no. Shows how conflicted I am on this topic.

Jim Albright

[dgarza]

I think that Klein is a legit HOFer, but...
I voted No because JA voted Yes and didn't mean to.
Hope this makes things "right"

[jalbright]

Thanks for bailing me out. This one's a tough call, IMO. I'm looking forward to some discussion on it.

Jim Albright

[RuthMayBond]

Klein's OPS+ is equal to or better than Gwynn, Kaline, Clemente, Winfield, and PWaner . . .
AND his OPS+ is ALSO the same or worse than Reggie Smith, JClark, Babe Herman, Strawberry, PGuerrero and Tiernan. :noidea h

[jalbright]

That kind of highlights why I personally don't like career OPS+: it works against players who played a long time. OPS+ for seasons with a minimum number of PA (say 400) has value, and a nice run of high number seasons is impressive, though. To me, a guy like Klein needs to out career OPS+ 3000 hit men to be seen as even close.

Jim Albright

[RuthMayBond]

That kind of highlights why I personally don't like career OPS+: it works against players who played a long time.
Jim Albright

Um, so do batting average, on-base percentage, slugging percentage, earned run average . . .

[jalbright]

On a completely unrelated note, I wanted to make this one of those polls where you could see who voted which way, yet it didn't come out that way. I'm sure I checked the appropriate box--what did I miss?

Jim Albright

[RuthMayBond]

On a completely unrelated note, I wanted to make this one of those polls where you could see who voted which way, yet it didn't come out that way. I'm sure I checked the appropriate box--what did I miss?

Jim Albright

I can see that Captain Cold Nose and you voted Yes and dgarza and Freakshow voted No

[Captain Cold Nose]

High offense era or not, Klein posted some huge numbers when he was at his best. It's not a horrible selection, and I am not as stat-driven or career over peak as others are (or vice versa) but I don't think having Chuck Klein in the Hall of Fame is out of line.

[Chisox]

This is why I wish there were two divisions of the Hall of Fame. Klein represents someone who put up incredible numbers for a very short period of time. I don't think he belongs in what we commonly call the Hall of Fame, or Hall of Great Players, but I do think he belongs in the next tier, the Hall of Dominence. Bottomline, I think the hall should recognize his outstanding achievments, but I don't think he should be in with the greatest of his position, as I don't see him as one of the best in his era. If limiting it to just the top 200/250 (currently) ect., I say no. I really wish they had a seperate wing so we wouldn't have to constantly debate these players. Jason Giambi, Ed Yost, ect. are others.

[Freakshow]

This is why I wish there were two divisions of the Hall of Fame...I really wish they had a seperate wing so we wouldn't have to constantly debate these players. Jason Giambi, Ed Yost, ect. are others.

I've always liked the idea of different levels or tiers. One scheme I like is to first split the HOFers in half, an Upper Hall and a Lower Hall. Then take the top third of the Upper Hall and create the Inner Circle.

To this you could also add an Outer Circle, to be maintained at the same size as the Lower Hall.

Then, establish a system where you couldn't be a member of a higher level until you were first elected to a lower one. So, a player must first be elected to the Outer Circle, making him a candidate for the Hall of Fame. After he is elected to the HOF (the Lower Hall), he will be eligible for the next Upper Hall election. After being elected to the Upper Hall, he will then be eligible for election to the Inner Circle.

You could even take the top third of the Inner Circle and create an Immortals Wing.

[jalbright]

I can see that Captain Cold Nose and you voted Yes and dgarza and Freakshow voted No

That's odd--I can't. A quirk of the system or my computer, perhaps?

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

High offense era or not, Klein posted some huge numbers when he was at his best. It's not a horrible selection, and I am not as stat-driven or career over peak as others are (or vice versa) but I don't think having Chuck Klein in the Hall of Fame is out of line.

It isn't the era that makes much difference to me--black and gray ink control that aspect well. It's the park. Really, look how many of his league leading accomplishments occurred before 1934, when he was traded to the Cubs. He wasn't nearly the player after the trade. Now if someone can make the case there was an injury there, I might listen, but other than that, I've got to take those awesome-looking numbers with a grain of salt. That said, I'm ambivalent enough to agree with the notion he's not an awful choice, though I don't happen to agree with it.

Jim Albright

[Chisox]

I've always liked the idea of different levels or tiers. One scheme I like is to first split the HOFers in half, an Upper Hall and a Lower Hall. Then take the top third of the Upper Hall and create the Inner Circle.

To this you could also add an Outer Circle, to be maintained at the same size as the Lower Hall.

Then, establish a system where you couldn't be a member of a higher level until you were first elected to a lower one. So, a player must first be elected to the Outer Circle, making him a candidate for the Hall of Fame. After he is elected to the HOF (the Lower Hall), he will be eligible for the next Upper Hall election. After being elected to the Upper Hall, he will then be eligible for election to the Inner Circle.

You could even take the top third of the Inner Circle and create an Immortals Wing.

That's not exactly what I meant, but I'm not against it.

Here's how my personal HOF works (generalized).

Hall of Great Players: players who were the best of the era or among the top 15 or so of all-time at their position.

Hall of Notable Players: players who either played a really long time putting up totals (Staub, ect.), or dominated for a while, but aren't great enough for the 1st level.

Hall of Award Winners: players who were either MVP or CY winners, great post-season performers, or perfect games/triple crown winners, but don't qualify for the first or second level.

I would place Klein in the second level, (along with Rice and Belle, BTW).

Any take on that system?