earle combs- how good is this guy?

[oscargamblesfro]

how bad (by hall of fame standards ) is earle combs? is he in solely because he played with the yankees teams of the 20's/ early 30's? he doesn't score high on the black ink/ gray ink tests, and his list of similar hitters includes only one hall of famer, and a very questionable one at that- elmer flick. his list of comparable hitters is an interesting mixed bag that includes pete fox, dom dimaggio , pete browning( i thought browning was an early slugger?!) jack tobin, and baby doll jacobson, to name a few....he's not a hall of famer in my view.

who is this guy most comparable to amongst everyday players today? i'm gonna guess that it might be johnny damon- leadoff hitter for a strong offensive club, weak arm, good speed- though damon had more speed earlier in his career and more power. am i off the mark with this comparison?

[ElHalo]

I don't believe I've ever heard anyone call Elmer Flick, and his OPS+ essentially even with Honus Wagner's, with an exceptional blend of speed, power, contact hitting, and plate discipline, a "very questionable" HoF'er.

If Combs was an average defensive corner outfielder, he'd be one of the worse selections in the Hall. However, he was a CF, and an absolutely exceptional one at that, albeit with a weak arm. He was a significantly better hitter than Max Carey, though shorter lived, with about equal defensive value. Seems like a Haller to me, if a bottom rung one, though I could certainly see the other side if it if you don't view his defense as highly, or give him a big hit for his weak arm.

[jalbright]

In the Veteran's Committee mistakes thread, he's named as a mistake on 22 of 31 ballots. Only three guys received more votes: Haines, Travis Jackson and Lindstrom. To be fair, Marquard and Chesbro got as many votes--and I changed my mind on Chesbro, which would give him 23 votes also. It seems the consensus is he's among the very worst selections to the Hall.

Jim Albright

[ElHalo]

He's certainly a better selection than, say, Lou Brock. I guess people just don't realize that he was a defensive specialist.

[Joltin' Joe]

EH, was he that good defensively?

[538280]

Combs shouldn't be in the HOF. He is in mostly because he played an inegeral role on the 1927 Yankees. He wouldn't be within a mile of the HOF if it wasn't for two guys named Ruth and Gehrig. Look at these numbers:

Black Ink: 7 (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: 78 (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: 37.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: 94.5 (Likely HOFer > 100)

When you also consider that Combs was a CFer, a position in which lots of offense is expected from, you realize how undeserving he really is of his HOF plaque.

Also, EH, he was hardly a "defensive specialist". Defensive Win Shares analysis has him rated at a C+.

[ElHalo]

Also, EH, he was hardly a "defensive specialist". Defensive Win Shares analysis has him rated at a C+.

And defensive WS is complete and utter nonsense. I honestly don't understand how you can keep putting faith in a system that gives you such patently absurd results. Look at the top 10 SS's defensive WS list you did the other day, look at the fact that Julio Lugo is not on it, and come back and tell me that defensive WS has any value whatsoever.

Combs was an excellent CF'er. He was known as having a terribly weak arm (somewhat compensated by the fact that Ruth and Muesel, his outfield teammates, had two of the best arms of the inter-war period, if not the two very best), but as being truly exceptional at everything else. Joe DiMaggio (another guy defensive WS does not think highly of), who was generally regarded as the best defensive CF'er of his era (well, before Ashburn came around, at least), was considered a downgrade.

Plus, you've got to give the guy at least a little bit of a break on the fact that he his career ended when he suffered a life threatening injury on the field.

[The Commissioner]

Combs shouldn't be in the HOF. He is in mostly because he played an inegeral role on the 1927 Yankees. He wouldn't be within a mile of the HOF if it wasn't for two guys named Ruth and Gehrig.

Yet, it could also be said that Ruth and Gehrig would not have put up the numbers that they did had it not been for Combs setting the table for them. He not only played an integral role on the '27 Yankees, but with the pennant winning '26 Yankees and World Championship '28 and '32 Yankees as well.

Also, EH, he was hardly a "defensive specialist". Defensive Win Shares analysis has him rated at a C+.

Once again, proving why the entire Win Shares system is flawed, at best. Combs was considered an excellent fielder by most accounts.

[leecemark]

--According to th 1925 Spaulding Guide Combs was "an outfielder of average ability, but not a player of the fast, hard throwing type". That quote referred specifically to his defense.
--EH's statement that WS doesn't like DiMaggio's defense is completely wrong. Joe DiMaggio won WS Gold Gloves in 1936, 37, 38 and 39. He missed 24 games in 1940 but still finished with the 4the most DWS. He won another in 42 and finsihed 4th in 43 before going to war. He won again in 46, 48 and 50 after the war. Overall DiMaggio won 8 GG in his 11 full (115 or more games) seasons and had the 4th most in 2 of the other 3.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I think you could have plugged any hitter in front of Ruth and Gehrig to "set the table" they were probably gonna get theres no matter what.

Theres a few impressive things about Combs' numbers considering he only played in 9 full seasons.

8 straight seasons with 30+ doubles, 15+triples 5 times, .340+B.A. 4 times, 8 straight season with 112+ R, more doubles than SO 7 times with one time being tied 33/33, hit .350 in 60 WS AB. Other than that, who knows.

[ElHalo]

--According to th 1925 Spaulding Guide Combs was "an outfielder of average ability, but not a player of the fast, hard throwing type". That quote referred specifically to his defense.
--EH's statement that WS doesn't like DiMaggio's defense is completely wrong. Joe DiMaggio won WS Gold Gloves in 1936, 37, 38 and 39. He missed 24 games in 1940 but still finished with the 4the most DWS. He won another in 42 and finsihed 4th in 43 before going to war. He won again in 46, 48 and 50 after the war. Overall DiMaggio won 8 GG in his 11 full (115 or more games) seasons and had the 4th most in 2 of the other 3.

Combs was a rookie in 1925. The arm part was most assuredly true, but it's very probable that people just hadn't seen him exploit his full potential defensively by that time. In his rookie season in 1924, he wasn't particularly impressive. After that, he started leading the league in putouts consistently (at least to the best of my knowledge; I don't have a list in front of me).

You're right about the WS and DiMaggio's defense; I was thinking of PCA, which shows DiMaggio to be FAR worse than his reputation defensively.

[leecemark]

--Combs did hit .340 4 times and .325 lifetime, but that wasn't truely special in his time. His highest finish in BA was 6th and he was only top 10 3 times. The 30 doubles a year wasn't impressive in that era either. Combs made the top 10 in 2B once, finishing 10th. Batting leadoff with Gehrig and Ruth behind him his entire career, Combs never led the league in runs (although he was regularly top 10). His would His career OPS+ of 126 is not particularly good for a Hall of Fame OF, especially one with such a short career.
--I don't have any advanced defensive metrics for Combs handy, but he does look pretty good by the crudest one with an RF+ of 113. He was a better hitter than Lloyd Waner, another contemporary CF who got inducted. Waner does have a better defensive rep and a longer career though. Not to mention Little Poison is one fo the worst Hall selection ever. Something else he has in common with Combs.
--Here is a list of CF not in Cooperstown with more WS than Combs; Dale Murphy, Jimmy Wynn, Wally Berger, Fred Lynn, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno, Amos Otis, Brett Butler, Jimmy Ryan, Willie Davis, George Van Haltren, Roy Thomas, Cy Seymour, Al Oliver, Andy VanSlyke, Clyde Milan, Ginger Beaumont, George Gore, Rick Monday, Mike Griffin, Dummy Hoy, Willie Wilson, Cy Williams, Ben Chapman and Chet Lemon. Dode Paskert has the same number. Dom DiMaggio would also have more if not for WWII. Several active players also have more. I'm not saying all these guys are better or more deserving than Combs. These are merely cumlative WS and some of these guys weren't as good as Combs, but played much longer. However, alot of them were better than Combs and the list of guys with more Win Shares NOT in Cooperstown is longer than the list of CF inducted. To be fair, Combs does not have the fewer WS of any HoF Cf, edging Hack Wilson 227-224. Personally I'd rather have Wilson, but I could do without either.
--Looking at peak value for the above list Combs does do a little better. His best 5 years (127 WS) topped 13 (about half) the guys who beat him on career totals. That leaves 11 (not including active or not yet eligible) CF who beat him in both peak and career achievement and are outside looking in. Again, Combs does avoid being the worst HoF CF by this measure. Hack Wilson zooms past him with 152, but Lloyd Waner drops below him. So Combs is the 2nd worst HoF CF by either peak or career WS, with the guy he beats in one category beating him in the other (Wilson's peak is about average for a HoF CF). I'd give Combs the slight edge over Waner as his peak advantage is larger than Waner's career advantage. Three cheers for Earl Combs, second worse centerfielder in the Hall of Fame!

[RuthMayBond]

In his rookie season in 1924, he wasn't particularly impressive. After that, he started leading the league in putouts consistently (at least to the best of my knowledge; I don't have a list in front of me).

Um, he didn't lead in '25
. . . or in '26.
He led in '27 & '28 (when he led in games both years) . . .
and that was it. But I don't see where he was a great fielder.

[oscargamblesfro]

so does anyone think that damon is the most comparable player today? if not damon, then who?

[leecemark]

--I like Kenny Lofton as a comp.