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Why no attention to Larry Doyle?

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  • Why no attention to Larry Doyle?

    Going through my queue, I was surprised out how well he comes out on closer examination. I'll run through what that examination showed:

    His 289 career win shares is good for 17th place among the second basemen discussed in the latest BJHA
    The 90 win shares he got in his best three years is the 13th best total among that same list of second basemen.
    The 130 win shares he earned in his best five consecutive years is good for 15th in that list of second basemen
    He had the second most win shares of any middle infielder of the 1910'a
    His gray ink total is excellent for a second baseman, 110th of all time
    He had pop in his bat as can be seen by the fact he finished in the top five in slugging percentage five times.

    To me, that resume says he was HOF caliber. Yet, we almost never hear about him, especially as an unrecognized great. What gives?

    Jim Albright
    24
    Yes
    37.50%
    9
    No
    33.33%
    8
    Maybe
    29.17%
    7
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    Originally posted by jalbright
    . Yet, we almost never hear about him, especially as an unrecognized great.
    I always thought he was one of the more recognized unrecognized greats, at least around these parts.

    Comment


    • #3
      Wouldn't be a terrible choice. Won an MVP, played on the great early 1910s Giants teams, had good power/speed combo... career was kind of short, though. But, yeah, he was just sort of forgotten, for whatever reason.
      "Hall of Famer Whitey Ford now on the field... pleading with the crowd for, for some kind of sanity!"

      Comment


      • #4
        Doyle is very comparable to Jeff Kent, but falls short in my mind because of the jump of the defensive spectrum. His offense in the 1910s wasn't as unique from that position as Kent's is today. Kent is marginal in my mind, so Doyle is the same, but a little below. There are 3 2B who deseve a plaque before him IMO (Grich, Whitaker, and Randolph). Him and Joe Gordon are two 2B who are close, but I don't think quite cut it.

        Doyle is one of my favorite deadball players though. When I first got here I rated him very high (top 15 2B), and thought he was one of the most underrated players ever. But, I've since looked at it more objectively and realized his case is wrecked by the spectrum jump.

        Comment


        • #5
          --I think top 15 2B is not unreasonable for Doyle. Top 20 for certain. He may have been the NL player of the decade for the 1910s. There are alot of Hall of Famers with worse resumes. Really being the best player of any major league for a decade is by itself a strong case for induction.

          Comment


          • #6
            Doyle is certainly an unsung great. I think Wally Schang and (to a lesser extent, perhaps) Ed Konetchy fall into that same category.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Chancellor
              Doyle is certainly an unsung great. I think Wally Schang and (to a lesser extent, perhaps) Ed Konetchy fall into that same category.
              I agree with all three players you mentioned.

              Comment


              • #8
                I would consider Doyle to be the third best eligible unenshrined 2b, behind only Joe Gordon and Lou Whitaker.

                All three should have been inducted already.

                Comment


                • #9
                  One might argue any of the following...
                  • That Larry Doyle was better than Johnny Evers
                  • That Wally Schang was better than Ray Schalk
                  • That Ed Konetchy was better than Frank Chance

                  The Konetchy vs. Chance would be the closest of the three. And there's a legitimate argument for Schalk's inclusion in Cooperstown. (He's probably the Ozzie Smith/Bill Mazeroski of catchers.) However...I really think these three are at least as good as their comps mentioned above.
                  "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                  "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                  "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                  "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    does it seems reasonable to say that doyle is probably the best 2b in the national league from 1900 until the rise of hornsby, and probably the best in major league baseball other than lajoie until hornsby?
                    Last edited by oscargamblesfro; 01-02-2006, 01:49 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Deleted...see below.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by oscargamblesfro
                        does it seems reasonable to say that doyle is probably the best 2b in the national league from 1900 until the rise of hornsby, and probably the best in major league baseball other than lajoie until hornsby?
                        Doyle wasn't as good as Eddie Collins (not that there's any shame in that).

                        Also in the AL, Del Pratt was a near contemporary. I think Doyle was probably a little bit better that Pratt myself, but it's certainly a close call, and a reasonable person might prefer Pratt.

                        In the NL, I can't think of any other big time 2b other than Evers (not going to research it at the moment; just top of the head). Doyle's glove at 2b was mediocre, but Evers' advantage there probably doesn't make up for Doyle's huge advantage at the plate.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          totally forgot about collins, how silly of me ...especially considering a really good case could be made that he's the best ever, his only real competition would be hornsby and morgan, and some fans today would argue biggio is top 5 too..
                          Last edited by oscargamblesfro; 01-02-2006, 05:57 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            does anyone else find it a bit strange that while some new york guys, like keller or elston howard are indeed underrated, doyle ( who i realize comes from a much earlier era) who is also underrated is a really obscure guy to most fans today- in spite of playing for (if i remember correctly) the biggest drawing, highest profile n.l. franchise of the time. my question is: at the time, was he a famous or highly regarded guy, or one who, like grich, kinda flew under the radar- was doyle in fact the grich of his day?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              --I've always been under the impression that Doyle was a huge star in his day and just got forgotten over time. He was the best player on a team that won 3 straight pennants (1911-13). He won the MVP once and was 3rd another time, in spite of the fact the award wasn't given out in much of his career. He won the batting title, which was THE big stat then, in 1915 (not his MVP year). I'd say he was much more famous and appreciated than Grich. Maybe not actually as good, but more honored in his own time.

                              Comment

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