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The Hall of Mistakes, Election #13

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  • The Hall of Mistakes, Election #13

    The Hall of Fame is never going to identify its mistakes, so it’s up to us. This is the 13th in a series of polls to set up a new wing in the Coop. We want to isolate the players that don’t reach the HOF’s minimum standards, so that they will not be used as examples for arguing that a similar player deserves enshrinement. We’ll elect one mistake at a time. These are our first twelve dishonorees, by position:

    C - Rick Ferrell
    1B - George Kelly
    2B - none
    3B - Fred Lindstrom
    SS - Travis Jackson
    LF - Chick Hafey
    CF - Lloyd Waner
    RF - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs
    P - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock

    Over on the History forum they’re running polls using the MVP voting format, voting for 10 guys in rank order, with points assigned 12,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Let’s use that method. Your worst hall of fame player will be voted #1, the next worst #2, down to your 10th worst. The player with the most total points at the end of the poll (probably about a week) will hereafter be designated as a Mistake. We will follow with another thread to identify the next worst player, and so on. We’ll continue until we’ve voted out 15% of the Coop’s 212 players (32 guys; this could increase to 33 if at least five players are elected in 2006).

    Players classified by the HOF as Pioneers/Managers/Executives/Umpires (e.g., Candy Cummings) are not eligible for this election. However, be aware that the 17 Negro league players are included; they are fair game for labeling as Mistakes.

    We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, Tommy McCarthy is probably the worst player in the Hall stat-wise. However, he was elected as much for being an innovator, a pioneer and a winning player as he was for his production as a player.

    Or Hughie Jennings. He has one of the shortest playing careers in the Hall. However, he was also a successful manager in addition to being the central player on a team often cited as the best of the 19th century. Frank Chance has a similar profile.

    So, voters will have to decide how much weight to give non-playing accomplishments. It should be interesting, as voters will need to consider more than just stats.

    A couple threads in this forum suggest candidates for voting out. The “Upper/Lower Hall of Fame Vote” thread has my list of who I think are the worst 76 players in the Hall. The poll under “Veterans Committee Mistakes” has the 20 worst players being Haines, T.Jackson, Lindstrom, Chesbro, Combs, Marquard, L. Waner, R. Ferrell, Hafey, Youngs, Hooper, G.Kelly, Tinker, Bottomley, Evers, Bancroft, Schoendienst, Rizzuto, Schalk and Lazzeri. There is also some good discussion from last spring in the thread “Weak HOFers”. Finally, in the thread "5 Tier HOF (v. 2) - The Admirable & Borderline" from 2003, the bottom 25 were identified (alphabetically) as Bancroft, Bottomley, Bresnahan, Chance, Chesbro, Combs, Evers, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Hoyt, T.Jackson, G.Kelly, Lindstrom, Maranville, Marquard, Mazeroski, McCarthy, Pennock, Rizzuto, Schalk, Schoendienst, Tinker, L.Waner, and Youngs.

    With Lindstrom, Kelly, McCarthy, Marquard, Haines, Waner, T. Jackson, Ferrell, Youngs, Bender, Hafey and Pennock no longer eligible, here's my list of the next ten to vote out:

    1.Combs
    2.Chesbro
    3.Tinker
    4.Schalk
    5.Kell G
    6.Hoyt W
    7.Johnson J
    8.Bottomley
    9.Willis
    10.Manush
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    1) Harry Hooper
    2) Waite Hoyt
    3) Joe Tinker
    4) Bobby Wallace
    5) Ray Schalk
    6) Rabbit Maranville
    7) Earl Combs
    8) Johnny Evers
    9) Dave Bancroft
    10) George Kell

    The only name being frequently tossed around that I do not think should be there or is even necessarily a bad Hall of Famer is Red Shoendienst.

    1,223 runs, 2,449 hits, 427 doubles, 289 average, rarely ever struck out while playing at second base while being regarded as an elite defensive second baseman.

    Finished in the top ten for batting average 5 times. Top 10 MVP voting 4 times. Career is littered with top 10 finishes in Hits, Runs, Stolen Bases Doubles and Triples. Not to mention 10 all-star appearances.

    Plus probably deserving of several Gold Glove awards.
    Last edited by pretorius; 12-30-2005, 10:50 PM.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking"

    Gen. Patton

    Comment


    • #3
      1. Schalk
      2. Chesbro
      3. Schoendienst
      4. Fingers
      6. Perez, Tony
      6. Hoyt
      7. Johnson, J.
      8. Combs
      9. Bottomley
      10. Joe Tinker
      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by pretorius
        1) Harry Hooper
        2) Waite Hoyt
        3) Joe Tinker
        4) Bobby Wallace
        5) Ray Schalk
        6) Rabbit Maranville
        7) Earl Combs
        8) Johnny Evers
        9) Dave Bancroft
        10) Lloyd Waner

        The only name being frequently tossed around that I do not think should be there or is even necessarily a bad Hall of Famer is Red Shoendienst.

        1,223 runs, 2,449 hits, 427 doubles, 289 average, rarely ever struck out while playing at second base while being regarded as an elite defensive second baseman.

        Finished in the top ten for batting average 5 times. Top 10 MVP voting 4 times. Career is littered with top 10 finishes in Hits, Runs, Stolen Bases Doubles and Triples. Not to mention 10 all-star appearances.

        Plus probably deserving of several Gold Glove awards.
        Welcome back, pretorius! I very much agree with your take on Schoendienst. The other thing to remember is to give him credit for his successful managing career.

        One thing. Could you please change the #10 spot on your ballot? We elected Waner way back in election #6. As a suggestion, the consensus of voters favors Chesbro as ripe for ejection.
        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

        Comment


        • #5
          1) Judy Johnson
          2) Earl Combs
          3) Jim Bottomley
          4) Jack Chesbro
          5) Waite Hoyt
          6) Ray Schalk
          7) Phil Rizzuto
          8) Dave Bancroft
          9) Red Schoendienst
          10) Joe Tinker
          --I'm almost out of guys who I think were absolute mistakes. Even some of the guys on this ballot I don't really think were horrible selections. Still lots of marginal guys though, with Ernie Lombardi and George Kell in the on deck circle now (Kell probably belongs ahead of some current ballot members, but I've got a soft spot for him due to his long career as a Tiger broadcaster).

          Comment


          • #6
            I added George Kell and removed Waner.

            I think the real Hall of Fame has 50-60 players I wouldn't mind trimming.

            35 without question or hesitation.

            I only think that 86 current Hall of Famers are absolute air tight lock deserving. The weakest of those 86 being Goose Goslin, Harry Heilmann, Ferguson Jenkins, Willie Keeler, Pie Traynor, Brooks Robinson, Ozzie Smith, Gabby Hartnett, Nolan Ryan, Bob Lemon, Joe McGinnity.

            I think another 45 or so would be on the cusp of an ideal Hall of Fame and probably would get in. Men like Bill Terry, Billy Herman, Nellie Fox, Luke Appling, Billy Williams, Lou Brock, Earl Averill, Dave Winfield, Don Drysdale, Burleigh Grimes and others.

            So only like 135 of the current hall of fame would probably be in an ideal hall for me.

            I would also add 2 to maybe 3 or 4 players not currently in the hall into my ideal Hall of Fame. The two locks being Santo and Gossage the maybe's being Sutter, Allen and maybe 1 or 2 other possibilities.

            However, I still have a good 10-15 men that I feel need dropped and maybe another 20 after that that I wouldn't mind seeing dropped.
            "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking"

            Gen. Patton

            Comment


            • #7
              We'll leave this open an extra day. Schalk, Hoyt, Combs and Chesbro are in a very tight race this week. Recent voters we've yet to hear from include El Halo, egautographs, 538280 and sweaver.
              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

              Comment


              • #8
                1-Earle Combs
                2-Jack Chesbro
                3-Waite Hoyt
                4-Joe Tinker
                5-Harry Hooper
                6-Dave Bancroft
                7-Jim Bottomley
                8-Red Schoendienst
                9-Phil Rizzuto
                10-Rollie Fingers
                Last edited by egautographs; 01-03-2006, 02:03 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by egautographs
                  1-Earle Combs
                  2-Jack Chesbro
                  3-Waite Hoyt
                  4-Joe Tinker
                  5-Harry Hooper
                  6-Dave Bancroft
                  7-Jim Bottomley
                  8-Lloyd Waner
                  9-Red Schoendienst
                  10-Phil Rizzuto
                  Thanks for checking in, that's three weeks in a row!

                  One thing: we elected Waner in the 6th election (you and I both had him #1). Some players you have supported in the past include Fingers, Schalk and Willis, so perhaps one of them to replace Lloyd?
                  Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                  Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Freakshow
                    Thanks for checking in, that's three weeks in a row!

                    One thing: we elected Waner in the 6th election (you and I both had him #1). Some players you have supported in the past include Fingers, Schalk and Willis, so perhaps one of them to replace Lloyd?
                    Sorry about that, I'll swith him with someone else

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Results, Election #13

                      Condolences to Earle Combs, who becomes the 13th member of the Hall of Mistakes. He joins Fred Lindstrom, George Kelly, Tommy McCarthy, Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Lloyd Waner, Travis Jackson, Rick Ferrell, Ross Youngs, Chief Bender, Chick Hafey and Herb Pennock. Combs' teammate Hoyt claimed the runnerup spot, just ahead of Chesbro and Schalk.

                      Here are the full results for the 13th election:
                      Code:
                      Pts	1st	Bal	Top 10 Players
                      49	2	6	Earle Combs
                      45	1	6	Waite Hoyt
                      42	0	5	Jack Chesbro
                      37	1	5	Ray Schalk
                      31	0	6	Joe Tinker
                      25	1	4	Judy Johnson
                      18	0	5	Jim Bottomley
                      18	1	2	Harry Hooper
                      16	0	4	Red Schoendienst
                      10	0	3	Dave Bancroft
                      			the rest
                      10	0	3	Fingers
                      7	0	2	Kell
                      7	0	1	Wallace
                      6	0	2	Willis
                      6	0	2	Rizzuto
                      6	0	1	Perez
                      5	0	1	Maranville
                      3	0	1	Evers
                      1	0	1	Manush
                      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I believe many modern baseball enthusiasts would not consider Ross Youngs' election a mistake.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
                          I believe many modern baseball enthusiasts would not consider Ross Youngs' election a mistake.
                          I'm one of them.
                          “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                          "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
                            I believe many modern baseball enthusiasts would not consider Ross Youngs' election a mistake.
                            I think most analysts still consider Youngs a mistake. Perhaps not among the Hall's ten weakest, as he was in this project. But he lacked the dominant peak that a short-career hall of famer needs.

                            He had only two years as one of the league's top ten players, never close to being the best. Only 5 points of Black Ink from a slugging position doesn't say "hall of fame". Youngs' WAR in his 7-year prime is on a par with corner OF like Maris, Veach, Herman, Giles and Colavito.
                            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                            Comment

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