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  • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

    Jones is unique. His decline was immediate, and big news. It was like aliens stole his talent. His hit tool was never great, but his other abilities were huge. Suddenly, he was poor on both sides of the ball. I almost wonder if there was some undiagnosed medical condition, perhaps neurological.

    Objectively, he has a solid case. Subjectively, the decline, and perhaps the domestic violence charges, are the first things I think of.



    Murphy was maybe the best player in the league. Williams might not even have been the best on his team. Being overshadowed affects subjective evaluation, which HoF voting is. Also, Williams was another whose skills declined rapidly. Murphy had the back injury as an excuse.

    It's almost like a specific injury is something you can factor into the evaluation. There's a reason Murphy played poorly. With Jones, and to a lesser extent, Williams, they were great, then they were mediocre or much worse, with no mitigating circumstances. Right or wrong, it becomes a mark against them.

    I will say, Williams was great, but he was a low key person, overshadowed on his Yankee teams, and because of that, underrated.

    Cone is another who, incredibly, was one and done. I followed the late 80s Mets, and 90s Yankees. Cone was the actual ace of both teams. Gooden, Clemens and maybe others got more ink, but you felt more comfortable in a big game if Cone was pitching. Partially because of all the greater coverage their teammates got, Williams and Cone were overlooked, underrated, and outside looking in.

    Correlatively, the success of the Yankees immediately after Mattingly retired also worked against his candidacy.

    In such cases playing in a big market, for a winner, can hurt a player.
    I don't know how it is to Murphy's advantage to be the best player on bad teams when Bernie was consistently the best player on some of the best teams of all time. Murphy was among the best players in the league during the first 2/3 of the 80s, but it's not like it was stacked with all time level talent. He was clearly behind Schmidt and Carter , and in the group with Dawson, Raines, Guerrero, and maybe Hernandez. A far cry from the top level talent Bernie played with in the 1990-s and early 2000s AL.

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    • Originally posted by willshad View Post

      I don't know how it is to Murphy's advantage to be the best player on bad teams when Bernie was consistently the best player on some of the best teams of all time. Murphy was among the best players in the league during the first 2/3 of the 80s, but it's not like it was stacked with all time level talent. He was clearly behind Schmidt and Carter , and in the group with Dawson, Raines, Guerrero, and maybe Hernandez. A far cry from the top level talent Bernie played with in the 1990-s and early 2000s AL.
      You don't see how being on teams with Jeter, Rivera, who both had longer primes, Clemens, Boggs, etc. might lead to Williams being overshadowed?


      "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

        You don't see how being on teams with Jeter, Rivera, who both had longer primes, Clemens, Boggs, etc. might lead to Williams being overshadowed?
        I always felt he was more overshadowed by the ridiculous juiced up numbers that other guys n the league were putting up. 25 115 ,342 would have won him the MVP in Murphy's time, but when other were going 47 148 .324, or 44 165 .333 then he had no chance to stand out.
        Last edited by willshad; 07-18-2021, 07:18 AM.

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        • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

          You don't see how being on teams with Jeter, Rivera, who both had longer primes, Clemens, Boggs, etc. might lead to Williams being overshadowed?
          At the time, seemed like Paul O'Neill overshadowed Williams in the outfield too.

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          • Originally posted by dgarza View Post

            At the time, seemed like Paul O'Neill overshadowed Williams in the outfield too.
            Yes, I remember. It was because O'Neill was "fiery". The media slaps a label on someone, and runs with it.

            Bernie was quiet, and liked to play guitar. The noted miscreant Mel Hall bullied Williams, when he first arrived on the Yankees. The organization had to set Hall straight, in no uncertain terms, who was more important.



            "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

              Yes, I remember. It was because O'Neill was "fiery". The media slaps a label on someone, and runs with it.

              Bernie was quiet, and liked to play guitar. The noted miscreant Mel Hall bullied Williams, when he first arrived on the Yankees. The organization had to set Hall straight, in no uncertain terms, who was more important.
              Sometimes it's hard to find articles to confirm things you think you remember so it's great to see someone you never met remembers things exactly the same way.

              Comment


              • I was born in 1988 and never was a Yankee fan but I definitely remember Bernie as being a bigger deal than Paul O’Neill.

                edit: haha as I remembered Bernie was in Sports Illustrated Kids magazine back in ‘96. I do believe I even had a page of Bernie on my wall playing guitar. Somehow dragged that out of the memory bank.
                Last edited by bluesky5; 07-18-2021, 02:46 PM.
                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by willshad View Post

                  I don't know how it is to Murphy's advantage to be the best player on bad teams
                  The two years he was NL MVP, the Braves won 89 and 88 games, finishing first and second in their division, respectively.

                  Additionally, the four guys you rope him in with as a nominal second rate group includes two HOFers, one who is borderline at worst and another (Guerrero) who Murphy was clearly superior to.

                  3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                    The two years he was NL MVP, the Braves won 89 and 88 games, finishing first and second in their division, respectively.

                    Additionally, the four guys you rope him in with as a nominal second rate group includes two HOFers, one who is borderline at worst and another (Guerrero) who Murphy was clearly superior to.
                    It really sucks he left Atlanta, period, but especially before 1991 and then to miss out on a chance to play with the ‘93 Phillies. Colorado was best case for obvious reasons but as I recall he was just some because of his back. Would have also benefited from a full 1981 season too. He’d have well over 400 home runs for one thing. Murphy was also defensively versatile in an odd way. The way he progressed by position and the order thereof just strikes me as unique. Reminds me of Nap Lajoie a little.

                    I just don’t understand why some of these guys are out. Murphy, Santo’s disgraceful post-death election, Dick Allen was sick and died, Dave Parker has serious health problems, Tony Oliva is 82, Minoso dead, Maury Wills is hardly on the radar but hey Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter are in. What a joke.
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                    Comment


                    • By a nice coincidence for this thread Don Mattingly and Murray are nearly perfect comps, at least as far as 5-year peaks go.

                      They had nearly identical 5-year peak WAR Mattingly -to- Murray: (28.8 -to- 28.7) and very similar 5-year peak OPS+ (150 -to- 155) Mattingly's first three GGs immediately followed Murray's three GGs. Even their counting stats were very similar.

                      All that to say...and Murray's nickname gives us some clue...Don Mattingly had more...sizzle. He was electric, while Murray was...steady. I admit it. Oh, Murray could go off, but even when he did go off he did it with such stoic coolness that he didn't get the press that Mattingly did.

                      Mattingly had "it" during his brief but awesome peak.

                      Then people have the audacity to say Murray was a "compiler" but Donnie B. was some great meteor of a talent. Well, Donnie B was!!! Which means Murray was no less a talent, he just made it look...cooler, calmer, more collected. Unless, of course, you threw at him and/or Ripken. Then Murray might blast one like Dick Allen 'cause he's pissed. ​

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                        I was born in 1988 and never was a Yankee fan but I definitely remember Bernie as being a bigger deal than Paul O’Neill.

                        edit: haha as I remembered Bernie was in Sports Illustrated Kids magazine back in ‘96. I do believe I even had a page of Bernie on my wall playing guitar. Somehow dragged that out of the memory bank.
                        O'Neill was more famous. Believe it or not, he had a Seinfeld appearance which greatly aided him in that dept.
                        He was also 'The Warrior'..
                        Bernie always got lost in-between O'Neill, Boggs, Mattingly, Cone; Tartabull, I guess, stats dont seem to suggest it but I def remember him being a big deal.
                        Black Jack McDowell was a thing, if only for a couple of seasons. Then along came the Jeter/Riviera/Pettite/Posada gang. Bernie was there when the Yankees sucked- before anyone but Mattingly- he developed slowly. I remember guys like Kevin Maas and BamBam Meulens, not Bernie.
                        He was around the age of the other guys but I guess, since he wasnt part of that Gene Michael/Showalter boost, he was never counted among them.

                        Bernie achieved celebrity towards the end of '96 when he was the ALCS mvp; he was an all-star after that.
                        In '97 Fox Saturday Baseball featured him- maybe that was '96- really think it was Spring 97
                        I remember the SI for kids but it was '97. I went to school in Harlem and hid out in the library during recess and remember devouring all the SI & SI for Kids but that wasnt until spring '97... the issue was new.
                        Google only gives me a 96 SI baseball card for kids, whatever that is and I am rambling.

                        tl;dr Bernie was a bigger deal to real serious fans, 'AOL messageboard ABR guys', but I def remember O'Neill being much more famous

                        edited to add that most assume the Yankkes renaissance began in '96. It was actually '94 and O'Neill was the star
                        Last edited by Calabasas; 09-22-2022, 03:57 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Calabasas View Post

                          O'Neill was more famous. Believe it or not, he had a Seinfeld appearance which greatly aided him in that dept.
                          He was also 'The Warrior'..
                          Bernie always got lost in-between O'Neill, Boggs, Mattingly, Cone; Tartabull, I guess, stats dont seem to suggest it but I def remember him being a big deal.
                          Black Jack McDowell was a thing, if only for a couple of seasons. Then along came the Jeter/Riviera/Pettite/Posada gang. Bernie was there when the Yankees sucked- before anyone but Mattingly- he developed slowly. I remember guys like Kevin Maas and BamBam Meulens, not Bernie.
                          He was around the age of the other guys but I guess, since he wasnt part of that Gene Michael/Showalter boost, he was never counted among them.

                          Bernie achieved celebrity towards the end of '96 when he was the ALCS mvp; he was an all-star after that.
                          In '97 Fox Saturday Baseball featured him- maybe that was '96- really think it was Spring 97
                          I remember the SI for kids but it was '97. I went to school in Harlem and hid out in the library during recess and remember devouring all the SI & SI for Kids but that wasnt until spring '97... the issue was new.
                          Google only gives me a 96 SI baseball card for kids, whatever that is and I am rambling.

                          tl;dr Bernie was a bigger deal to real serious fans, 'AOL messageboard ABR guys', but I def remember O'Neill being much more famous

                          edited to add that most assume the Yankkes renaissance began in '96. It was actually '94 and O'Neill was the star
                          Interesting I would have never guessed. I suppose I did watch the Yankees more around the time O’Neill was fading a bit while Bernie was still a regular long after. Which probably made me feel that way.
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                            Interesting I would have never guessed. I suppose I did watch the Yankees more around the time O’Neill was fading a bit while Bernie was still a regular long after. Which probably made me feel that way.
                            Bernie was my favorite player back then. I remember being angry at a lot of people during 1998- that kind of 14 yo impotent rage.. Dude won a batting title and all anyone wanted to talk about was David Wells and his perfect game, or how bad Hideki Irabu was last year but he was ok now and what about Orlando Hernandez and his crazy delivery, let's have David Cone and Luis Sojo practice it at the Tunnel. Chuck Knobluach cant throw and Bob Costas is concerned. Scott Brosius is like Pete Rose kinda, maybe. Ramiro Mendoza, Jeff Nelson, Graeme Lloyd and even Mike Stanton w/ his 6 era, holy schnikey. Not even touching on Jeter and his breakout year; Joe Torre, Cashman, Steinbrenner... In 96 it was Bob Watson and Jeremy Maier. Darryl Strawberry is back. Shane Spencer is Babe Ruth? Tino Martiinez is Hank Greenberg or Bob Watson?
                            Then theres Bernie, just quietly holding down CF, in true blue Yankee fashion, but he mizewell be Chad Curtis or Tim Raines.

                            tbh, O'Neill was more valuable than Bernie that year, and iirc, way more memorable. In all fairness Bernie missed a lot of time due to injury and Chad Curtis and Ricky Ledee and Shane Spencer filled in.
                            Just an aside, everyone thought Ledee was a stud, at least as late as 96.
                            Last edited by Calabasas; 09-23-2022, 01:00 AM. Reason: Its jeff maierw

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Calabasas View Post

                              O'Neill was more famous. Believe it or not, he had a Seinfeld appearance which greatly aided him in that dept.
                              He was also 'The Warrior'..
                              Bernie always got lost in-between O'Neill, Boggs, Mattingly, Cone; Tartabull, I guess, stats dont seem to suggest it but I def remember him being a big deal.
                              Black Jack McDowell was a thing, if only for a couple of seasons. Then along came the Jeter/Riviera/Pettite/Posada gang. Bernie was there when the Yankees sucked- before anyone but Mattingly- he developed slowly. I remember guys like Kevin Maas and BamBam Meulens, not Bernie.
                              He was around the age of the other guys but I guess, since he wasnt part of that Gene Michael/Showalter boost, he was never counted among them.

                              Bernie achieved celebrity towards the end of '96 when he was the ALCS mvp; he was an all-star after that.
                              In '97 Fox Saturday Baseball featured him- maybe that was '96- really think it was Spring 97
                              I remember the SI for kids but it was '97. I went to school in Harlem and hid out in the library during recess and remember devouring all the SI & SI for Kids but that wasnt until spring '97... the issue was new.
                              Google only gives me a 96 SI baseball card for kids, whatever that is and I am rambling.

                              tl;dr Bernie was a bigger deal to real serious fans, 'AOL messageboard ABR guys', but I def remember O'Neill being much more famous

                              edited to add that most assume the Yankkes renaissance began in '96. It was actually '94 and O'Neill was the star
                              Small add, while O'Neill may have been more famous, and his Seinfeld episode was more memorable, Bernie did appear as well, rather than displaying home run power ala O'Neill, Williams took some hitting tips
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZz_rbAmfmY

                              Bernie is a bubble HOF type, with Mattingly and O'Neill have great careers that fall a little short.
                              Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                              http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Calabasas View Post

                                Bernie was my favorite player back then. I remember being angry at a lot of people during 1998- that kind of 14 yo impotent rage.. Dude won a batting title and all anyone wanted to talk about was David Wells and his perfect game, or how bad Hideki Irabu was last year but he was ok now and what about Orlando Hernandez and his crazy delivery, let's have David Cone and Luis Sojo practice it at the Tunnel. Chuck Knobluach cant throw and Bob Costas is concerned. Scott Brosius is like Pete Rose kinda, maybe. Ramiro Mendoza, Jeff Nelson, Graeme Lloyd and even Mike Stanton w/ his 6 era, holy schnikey. Not even touching on Jeter and his breakout year; Joe Torre, Cashman, Steinbrenner... In 96 it was Bob Watson and Jeremy Maier. Darryl Strawberry is back. Shane Spencer is Babe Ruth? Tino Martiinez is Hank Greenberg or Bob Watson?
                                Then theres Bernie, just quietly holding down CF, in true blue Yankee fashion, but he mizewell be Chad Curtis or Tim Raines.

                                tbh, O'Neill was more valuable than Bernie that year, and iirc, way more memorable. In all fairness Bernie missed a lot of time due to injury and Chad Curtis and Ricky Ledee and Shane Spencer filled in.
                                Just an aside, everyone thought Ledee was a stud, at least as late as 96.
                                I love the names. No Homer Bush love!! Lol
                                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                                Comment

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