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  • What About Quisenberry?

    I'm really not that against Sutter's election. I do believe the very, very best of the closers should make it, and Sutter is definitely on that top level (he's just not first IMO).

    My biggest problem with Sutter's election (other than being elected before Gossage) is what about Quisenberry? If Sutter is in, why not Quisenberry? Quisenberry isn't credited with creating a pitch, but he was at least as good as Sutter, if not better. Yet Quisenberry was dropped on his first try and Sutter is now elected.

    Does anyone else feel that this is a total disjustice to Quisenberry and that writers should be ashamed of their collective ignorance?

  • #2
    Yes, I agree that Quisenberry should have been in before Sutter, as he is the better pitcher. Was Quisenberry as flashy? No. But he played played just as long as Sutter and got the job done better, but with less strikeouts.

    Before either of them, I believe Gossage deserves it.

    My HOF-Worthy relief pitchers as so:
    1.Hoyt Wilhelm*
    2.Mariano Rivera
    3.Goose Gossage
    4.Rollie Fingers*
    5.Dan Quisenberry
    6.Bruce Sutter*
    7.Trevor Hoffman
    8.Tom Henke
    9.John Wetteland
    10.John Franco
    11.Sparky Lyle
    12.Dennis Eckersley*
    13.Lee Smith
    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
    AL Pennant: 1982
    NL Central Champions: 2011
    NL Wild Card: 2008

    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

    Comment


    • #3
      I like that list a lot, though I might put Lyle ahead of Franco.

      Comment


      • #4
        Quiz is in my personal Hall of Fame in the Closers Wing.

        The 21 in mine (although subject to change)
        Hoyt Wilhelm
        Dennis Eckersley
        Rich Gossage
        Rollie Fingers
        Ron Reed
        John Hiller
        JOHN FRANCO
        Stu Miller
        Lee Smith
        Jesse Orosco
        Tug McGraw
        Bruce Sutter
        Dan Quisenberry
        MARIANO RIVERA
        TREVOR HOFFMAN
        Jeff Reardon
        Robb Nen
        John Wetteland
        Elroy Face
        Tom Henke
        BILLY WAGNER
        Johnson and now Goligoski gone.
        I hope that's all.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Chisox
          Quiz is in my personal Hall of Fame in the Closers Wing.

          The 21 in mine (although subject to change)
          Hoyt Wilhelm
          Dennis Eckersley
          Rich Gossage
          Rollie Fingers
          Ron Reed
          John Hiller
          JOHN FRANCO
          Stu Miller
          Lee Smith
          Jesse Orosco
          Tug McGraw
          Bruce Sutter
          Dan Quisenberry
          MARIANO RIVERA
          TREVOR HOFFMAN
          Jeff Reardon
          Robb Nen
          John Wetteland
          Elroy Face
          Tom Henke
          BILLY WAGNER
          What do you think abut Firpo Marberry and Johnny Murphy?
          Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
          Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
          Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
          Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
          Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
            What do you think abut Firpo Marberry and Johnny Murphy?
            I don't know. It's really difficult to compare old time closers to modern closers. I think I had Murphy just on the outside. I'll have to re-check Marberry. When I compiled the list, I limited to those averaging under 5IP/G to make it easier to compare so I'm not even sure if Marberry qualified.
            Johnson and now Goligoski gone.
            I hope that's all.

            Comment


            • #7
              I though Quisenberry was great the first half of his career. His career numbers and Sutter's are almost identical.

              IP BR/9 ERA Games

              Sutter 1042 10.37 2.83 661
              Quisenberry 1043 10.64 2.76 674

              They both pitched for 12 years.

              Marberry, who is worthy of consideration, suffers from several guys in his era being better and not in the HoF. See Eddie Rommel.

              There is nothing about Murphy's career that says HoF.
              Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KCGHOST
                I though Quisenberry was great the first half of his career. His career numbers and Sutter's are almost identical.

                IP BR/9 ERA Games

                Sutter 1042 10.37 2.83 661
                Quisenberry 1043 10.64 2.76 674

                They both pitched for 12 years.

                Marberry, who is worthy of consideration, suffers from several guys in his era being better and not in the HoF. See Eddie Rommel.

                There is nothing about Murphy's career that says HoF.
                Well, he did hold the retro-active all-time saves record for a while until Elroy Face came along, but other than that...
                Johnson and now Goligoski gone.
                I hope that's all.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KCGHOST
                  I though Quisenberry was great the first half of his career. His career numbers and Sutter's are almost identical.

                  IP BR/9 ERA Games

                  Sutter 1042 10.37 2.83 661
                  Quisenberry 1043 10.64 2.76 674

                  They both pitched for 12 years.

                  Marberry, who is worthy of consideration, suffers from several guys in his era being better and not in the HoF. See Eddie Rommel.

                  There is nothing about Murphy's career that says HoF.
                  Thanks. I was merely asking about them, mind you. Not endorsing either of them. I'll check out Rommel.
                  Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                  Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                  Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                  Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                  Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KCGHOST
                    I though Quisenberry was great the first half of his career. His career numbers and Sutter's are almost identical.

                    IP BR/9 ERA Games

                    Sutter 1042 10.37 2.83 661
                    Quisenberry 1043 10.64 2.76 674

                    They both pitched for 12 years.
                    You know what? Take off fellow submariner Kent Tekulve's last three years or so, and his record looks alot like that.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Barnstormer
                      You know what? Take off fellow submariner Kent Tekulve's last three years or so, and his record looks alot like that.

                      This is not exactly a ringing set of endorsements of the Sutter election.
                      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KCGHOST
                        This is not exactly a ringing set of endorsements of the Sutter election.
                        Yeah, relievers may be the toughest position to judge "greatness" on just based on stats. I'm never sure which stats should get weighed more heavily. Because you could make cases that a lot of his peers aren't really statistically much worse than Sutter - Tekulve, Lyle, McGraw, Quiz - especially if you just take their career up to age 35 when Sutter quit - and they were all booted off on their first ballot (except Sparky who lasted a few years). I guess contemporary opinion counts for a lot.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Barnstormer
                          Yeah, relievers may be the toughest position to judge "greatness" on just based on stats. I'm never sure which stats should get weighed more heavily. Because you could make cases that a lot of his peers aren't really statistically much worse than Sutter - Tekulve, Lyle, McGraw, Quiz - especially if you just take their career up to age 35 when Sutter quit - and they were all booted off on their first ballot (except Sparky who lasted a few years). I guess contemporary opinion counts for a lot.
                          Sutter has a couple of things that help differentiate him, even though statistically he's not much different than the other guys.

                          1) Credited with the splitter
                          2) Regarded as more dominant at best than the other guys
                          3) Pitched for high-profile teams (Chicago and then very good Cardinals teams)
                          4) Recognizable look (which some of the others have as well)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                            Sutter has a couple of things that help differentiate him, even though statistically he's not much different than the other guys.

                            1) Credited with the splitter
                            2) Regarded as more dominant at best than the other guys
                            3) Pitched for high-profile teams (Chicago and then very good Cardinals teams)
                            4) Recognizable look (which some of the others have as well)
                            These are images, somewhat. Sutter was the best reliever in the NL from 1979-84, but Quisenberry was the best reliever in the AL from 1980-85. Sutter played for a team that was on national cable TV, but Quisenberry was an integral part of the Royals' 1980 pennant winning team and the Royals' 1985 World Championship team.

                            I really don't consider "inventing" a pitch to be a credential for being in the HOF. Methods, to me, aren't a substitute for results.

                            Quiz was a better pitcher than Sutter, IMO. I'm not a fan of Sutter's election, so Quiz isn't an overwhelming candidate, but I'm not a big fan of relievers in the HOF in general. Sutter is in, and Quiz is not, because (A) Sutter was much more of a power pitcher, and (B) Sutter won a Cy Young Award. Whether or not either Sutter or Quiz deserved one is a matter of debate, and it depends on whether or not you view relievers as worthy of the Cy Young Award, but the fact that Sutter won one and Quiz didn't made him more memorable.

                            Quiz was a great guy, and a guy I would LIKE to see in the HOF, but for the precedent it would set. If Quiz, why not Sparky Lyle? Lyle won a Cy Young Award, and was a full-time star reliever before it was cool. If Lyle, why not Tug McGraw? McGraw was a guy who COULD have been a starter. If McGraw, why not Mike Marshall, who was a heavy duty reliever, who also won a Cy Young Award? We could work this down to where we ask "If Don McMahon, why not Frank Linzy? Why not Lindy McDaniel?" I'm not a big fan of this downward spiral.
                            "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                            NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Name H-Factor Era
                              1. Dennis Eckersley 16801 6
                              2. Rollie Fingers 14114 6

                              3. Mariano Rivera 12942 8
                              4. Lee Smith 12291 6
                              5. Trevor Hoffman 11769 8
                              6. John Franco 10645 7

                              7.Rich Goose Gossage 10552 6
                              8. Bruce Sutter 10311 6

                              9. Randy Myers 9889 7
                              10. Jeff Reardon 9312 6
                              11 Jose Mesa 8863 8
                              12. Sparky Lyle 8853 6
                              13. Hoyt Wilhelm 8775 5 (Best in his era)
                              14. Dan Quisenberry 8709 6
                              15. John Wetteland 8274 6
                              16. Billy Wagner 8244 8
                              17. Tom Henke 7806 6
                              18. Johnny Murphy 7703 3 (Best in his era)
                              19. Roberto Hernandez 7645 8
                              20. Rick Aguilera 7592 7
                              21. Robb Nen 7343 7
                              22. Tom Gordon 7342 8
                              23. Todd Jones 7259 8
                              24. Armando Benitez 7252 8
                              25. Steve Bedrosian 7201 6
                              26. Tug McGraw 7199 6
                              27. Troy Percival 7086 8
                              28. Doug Jones 7084 7
                              29. Jason Isringhausen 7058 8
                              30. Dave Righetti 6902 6
                              31. Roy Face 6732 5
                              32. Mike Marshall 6665 5
                              33. Rod Beck 6654 7

                              Here's your downward spiral you are talking about. I bolded the guys in the Hall of Fame and then I italicized guys that should be in the Hall when induction comes for them and I underlined Smith because he's garnering 40% of the vote, but not in yet. I italicized quis, Lyle and Mcgraw because you referenced them.

                              The reference numbers of course is the H-Factor for what's it worth to you.
                              Last edited by henrich; 12-28-2008, 01:59 PM.

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