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Will Clark Got Shafted!

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  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by Tigerfan1974
    There were several hot rookies in the mid and late 80's that everyone was talking almost immediately about HoF.
    Clark, Bonilla, Sheffield, McGwire, Canseco, Griffey Jr, Bonds, VanSlyke, anf the list could go on.

    Most have or are fizzling.
    McGwire will make it, hopefully on his first ballopt next year.
    Bonds will also obviously make it, although I personally think he shouldn't.

    Junior has dropped off the chart, plagued by injuries.
    The others never had a chance, in my book.

    Clark doesn't have 3000 hits, he has less than 300 HR, and a .303 BA according to the original post. He was a very good first baseman but just not HoF caliber, I think.
    Griffey and Sheffield will easily make the HoF.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tigerfan1974
    replied
    There were several hot rookies in the mid and late 80's that everyone was talking almost immediately about HoF.
    Clark, Bonilla, Sheffield, McGwire, Canseco, Griffey Jr, Bonds, VanSlyke, anf the list could go on.

    Most have or are fizzling.
    McGwire will make it, hopefully on his first ballopt next year.
    Bonds will also obviously make it, although I personally think he shouldn't.

    Junior has dropped off the chart, plagued by injuries.
    The others never had a chance, in my book.

    Clark doesn't have 3000 hits, he has less than 300 HR, and a .303 BA according to the original post. He was a very good first baseman but just not HoF caliber, I think.

    Leave a comment:


  • Melottfan
    replied
    Hall of Fame/Will Clark got shafted!!

    In looking over his career, Will Clark has better stats than half of the yo-yo's
    already in! I take Clark over Keith "Dopehead" Hernandez anyday! Clark was a better player. The Hall of Fame voting was better the way it was. Or, better yet, do away with the sportswriters, and expand the veterans group. That way, everyone has a good chance.I don't care for the current way of voting.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnny
    replied
    I like Will and all...

    But I do not have a problem with him not being in the HOF. I will have problems with the juicers getting in ala Sosa/Big Mac/Rafi et al. And at some point, they probably will get voted in. Damn.
    In regards to Will, he was a damn fine player. At times very fine. But he ain't no Jimmy Foxx or Eddie Murray.
    In fact, maybe if we hold up Will as the demarcation line of sorts.

    If you ain't better than Will your not getting in. If you can look at the candidate and say he was better than Will than that player should get in.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pine Tar
    replied
    Originally posted by Barnstormer
    Speaking of Jacks, maybe some voters confused Will Clark for Jack Clark, and so didn't vote for him.
    I assume you are kidding and that you think Will Clark is so much more deserving than Jack Clark BUT he actually makes for an interesting comparison.
    Both were in the top 10 in MVP voting 4 times.
    Jack Clark played in 1994 games, Will CLark in 1976 games.
    Jack Clark's career OBP is .379, Will Clark's is .384.
    Jack Clark had 1180 RBI, Will Clark had 1200.
    Will Clarks best 6 years of adjusted OPS+ are 175, 160, 153, 152, 150, 140
    Jack Clarks best 6 years of adjusted OPS+ are 176, 152, 152, 150, 149, 138
    Both were in the top 10 in adjusted OPS+ 6 times.
    Jack Clark's black ink is 9, Will Clark's is 13.
    Jack Clark's grey ink is 87, Will Clark's is 94.
    WIll Clark had more hits but Jack Clark had more home runs.
    Both played in and lost a world series.

    So, this doesn't look like that big a difference to me. Perhaps people voted for Will Clark because they thought he was Jack Clark.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barnstormer
    replied
    Originally posted by Baseball Guru
    Good theory and a terrible mistake.. Sorry, mistakes like this should never be made with something important like that.. What if Jack missed the cut by 2 votes?
    Speaking of Jacks, maybe some voters confused Will Clark for Jack Clark, and so didn't vote for him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by Pine Tar
    Take away Keith Hernandez's last two years (so he played just as long as Clark) and his OPS+ is pretty close to Clark's AND Hernandez has an MVP AND is generally regarded as the best fielding 1b in the modern era and you are tell ing me WIll Clark is convincingly better than him? I mean there is certainly an argument to be made there but to say Clark is easily better than Hernandez????

    As for being clearly better than Mattingly, well career stats just don't fairly evaluate the career of Mattingly do they. I mean for 84-87 a lot of people viewed him as the BEST player in baseball, somthing that Will Clark could never have said about himself. It totally depends on what you look for in hall worthiness. Many would rather have the best player in baseball for a time period in the hall than a player who was very good for a long time. Again, Clark being clearly better than Mattingly????
    Easily better? Absolutely not. Remember, I said the evidence was damnig in Clark's favor. But evidence is only as good as the argument being used about it. The numbers posted show Clark as slightly superior with the bat. I don't agree with the assessment that Clark "kills" the other three. That's too strong and I shouldn't have so readily agreed.
    For a couple seasons after Mattingly stopped being Donnie Baseball, there would have been a good argument Clark was the best player in baseball. That was at a time when Bo Jackson was also mentioned for that mythological title (989-1991 or so) so he also can have that on his resume. As for Hernandez, he's not the offensive player that Clark was, but the glove might even pull him ahead overall. Thus, nine years on the ballot as opposed to one.
    For their careers, Clark is a tad better with the stick. Overall, it's close between Mattingly and Clark, with Hernandez's glove (and key roles on two W.S. champions) giving him an edge on both.

    Leave a comment:


  • Baseball Guru
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar
    I have a theory that at least one or two of the five votes that went to Hal Morris were meant for Jack Morris.

    Good theory and a terrible mistake.. Sorry, mistakes like this should never be made with something important like that.. What if Jack missed the cut by 2 votes?

    Leave a comment:


  • Baseball Guru
    replied
    Originally posted by Brooklyn
    What bothers me more is the vote changing. Voters didn't deem any of these players worthy last year, and what have the players done in the past year to change the voters mind? I buy the argument that voters do more research, get more info, etc., but shouldn't they do all the research before the first ballot?

    I don't understand the whole idea of players trending from up from year to year. I don't think a voter should be rigid - they shuold reservew the right to change their minds. But it happens too much for my comfort.
    Very well said.. I guess I'm just sitting here wondering today is that how Bruce Sutter's stats have gotten so much better over the last 12 years for him to get in this year as opposed to the 1st 12 he was eligible?

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar
    I have a theory that at least one or two of the five votes that went to Hal Morris were meant for Jack Morris.
    You're probably right. There is no reason whatsoever that Hal Morris should have received any votes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    I have a theory that at least one or two of the five votes that went to Hal Morris were meant for Jack Morris.

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by hudsonharden
    I think every voter uses their vote in a different way. I can almost guarentee that Cal Ripken, Jr. will not get 100% of the vote next year. I'd be very impressed if someone could make a decent arguement for Ripken not being in the Hall of Fame. However, some people may think that since he's an automatic shoe-in, they would rather use their vote on a border-line type guy just in the hopes of keeping him on the ballot for another year, even if they don't think he's a HOFer. That's the only logical explanation for Gregg Jefferies and Walt Weiss getting votes.
    Sometimes I think those random players that don't deserve any votes (such as Gregg Jefferies) must have friends that are part of the BBWAA or something.

    Leave a comment:


  • hudsonharden
    replied
    I think every voter uses their vote in a different way. I can almost guarentee that Cal Ripken, Jr. will not get 100% of the vote next year. I'd be very impressed if someone could make a decent arguement for Ripken not being in the Hall of Fame. However, some people may think that since he's an automatic shoe-in, they would rather use their vote on a border-line type guy just in the hopes of keeping him on the ballot for another year, even if they don't think he's a HOFer. That's the only logical explanation for Gregg Jefferies and Walt Weiss getting votes.

    Leave a comment:


  • mojorisin71
    replied
    Do I feel sorry for Will Clark? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    (sorry, that's my anti-Giant statement of the day)

    In all seriousness, Clark deserved a lot more than a one-and-done. Jeremy Schaap on ESPNRadio said that if voters seriously thought that Gregg Jeffries (a guy who clearly doesn't deserve to be in Cooperstown) was HOF-worthy, then they don't deserve to vote.
    Last edited by mojorisin71; 01-11-2006, 06:59 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jermz
    replied
    Will deserves another shot. Because although he would never come close next year (going against Gwynn & Ripken), he would have a better shot in 2008 (where the stiffest competition would be Goose, Dawson & Lee Smith)...again in 2009 (when Rickey Henderson is the lone shoe-in)...and 2010 (Edgar Martinez has a shot).

    But by 2011, Cal, Gwynn, McGwire, Edgar, Rickey, Lee Smith, Goose & The Hawk should all be in by then...and Will would have a better chance of making it. He just missed it by a few votes too.

    Really sucks that Steve Garvey got so many votes & Will got almost none.

    Leave a comment:

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