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Will Clark Got Shafted!

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Cougar
    I have a theory that at least one or two of the five votes that went to Hal Morris were meant for Jack Morris.

    Good theory and a terrible mistake.. Sorry, mistakes like this should never be made with something important like that.. What if Jack missed the cut by 2 votes?
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    • #47
      Originally posted by Pine Tar
      Take away Keith Hernandez's last two years (so he played just as long as Clark) and his OPS+ is pretty close to Clark's AND Hernandez has an MVP AND is generally regarded as the best fielding 1b in the modern era and you are tell ing me WIll Clark is convincingly better than him? I mean there is certainly an argument to be made there but to say Clark is easily better than Hernandez????

      As for being clearly better than Mattingly, well career stats just don't fairly evaluate the career of Mattingly do they. I mean for 84-87 a lot of people viewed him as the BEST player in baseball, somthing that Will Clark could never have said about himself. It totally depends on what you look for in hall worthiness. Many would rather have the best player in baseball for a time period in the hall than a player who was very good for a long time. Again, Clark being clearly better than Mattingly????
      Easily better? Absolutely not. Remember, I said the evidence was damnig in Clark's favor. But evidence is only as good as the argument being used about it. The numbers posted show Clark as slightly superior with the bat. I don't agree with the assessment that Clark "kills" the other three. That's too strong and I shouldn't have so readily agreed.
      For a couple seasons after Mattingly stopped being Donnie Baseball, there would have been a good argument Clark was the best player in baseball. That was at a time when Bo Jackson was also mentioned for that mythological title (989-1991 or so) so he also can have that on his resume. As for Hernandez, he's not the offensive player that Clark was, but the glove might even pull him ahead overall. Thus, nine years on the ballot as opposed to one.
      For their careers, Clark is a tad better with the stick. Overall, it's close between Mattingly and Clark, with Hernandez's glove (and key roles on two W.S. champions) giving him an edge on both.
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      • #48
        Originally posted by Baseball Guru
        Good theory and a terrible mistake.. Sorry, mistakes like this should never be made with something important like that.. What if Jack missed the cut by 2 votes?
        Speaking of Jacks, maybe some voters confused Will Clark for Jack Clark, and so didn't vote for him.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Barnstormer
          Speaking of Jacks, maybe some voters confused Will Clark for Jack Clark, and so didn't vote for him.
          I assume you are kidding and that you think Will Clark is so much more deserving than Jack Clark BUT he actually makes for an interesting comparison.
          Both were in the top 10 in MVP voting 4 times.
          Jack Clark played in 1994 games, Will CLark in 1976 games.
          Jack Clark's career OBP is .379, Will Clark's is .384.
          Jack Clark had 1180 RBI, Will Clark had 1200.
          Will Clarks best 6 years of adjusted OPS+ are 175, 160, 153, 152, 150, 140
          Jack Clarks best 6 years of adjusted OPS+ are 176, 152, 152, 150, 149, 138
          Both were in the top 10 in adjusted OPS+ 6 times.
          Jack Clark's black ink is 9, Will Clark's is 13.
          Jack Clark's grey ink is 87, Will Clark's is 94.
          WIll Clark had more hits but Jack Clark had more home runs.
          Both played in and lost a world series.

          So, this doesn't look like that big a difference to me. Perhaps people voted for Will Clark because they thought he was Jack Clark.

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          • #50
            I like Will and all...

            But I do not have a problem with him not being in the HOF. I will have problems with the juicers getting in ala Sosa/Big Mac/Rafi et al. And at some point, they probably will get voted in. Damn.
            In regards to Will, he was a damn fine player. At times very fine. But he ain't no Jimmy Foxx or Eddie Murray.
            In fact, maybe if we hold up Will as the demarcation line of sorts.

            If you ain't better than Will your not getting in. If you can look at the candidate and say he was better than Will than that player should get in.
            Johnny
            Delusion, Life's Coping Mechanism

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            • #51
              Hall of Fame/Will Clark got shafted!!

              In looking over his career, Will Clark has better stats than half of the yo-yo's
              already in! I take Clark over Keith "Dopehead" Hernandez anyday! Clark was a better player. The Hall of Fame voting was better the way it was. Or, better yet, do away with the sportswriters, and expand the veterans group. That way, everyone has a good chance.I don't care for the current way of voting.

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              • #52
                There were several hot rookies in the mid and late 80's that everyone was talking almost immediately about HoF.
                Clark, Bonilla, Sheffield, McGwire, Canseco, Griffey Jr, Bonds, VanSlyke, anf the list could go on.

                Most have or are fizzling.
                McGwire will make it, hopefully on his first ballopt next year.
                Bonds will also obviously make it, although I personally think he shouldn't.

                Junior has dropped off the chart, plagued by injuries.
                The others never had a chance, in my book.

                Clark doesn't have 3000 hits, he has less than 300 HR, and a .303 BA according to the original post. He was a very good first baseman but just not HoF caliber, I think.
                1968 and 1984, the greatest ever.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Tigerfan1974
                  There were several hot rookies in the mid and late 80's that everyone was talking almost immediately about HoF.
                  Clark, Bonilla, Sheffield, McGwire, Canseco, Griffey Jr, Bonds, VanSlyke, anf the list could go on.

                  Most have or are fizzling.
                  McGwire will make it, hopefully on his first ballopt next year.
                  Bonds will also obviously make it, although I personally think he shouldn't.

                  Junior has dropped off the chart, plagued by injuries.
                  The others never had a chance, in my book.

                  Clark doesn't have 3000 hits, he has less than 300 HR, and a .303 BA according to the original post. He was a very good first baseman but just not HoF caliber, I think.
                  Griffey and Sheffield will easily make the HoF.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                    Griffey and Sheffield will easily make the HoF.
                    Maybe if they but a ticket!
                    1968 and 1984, the greatest ever.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Tigerfan1974
                      Maybe if they but a ticket!
                      Care to place a wager?
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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Tigerfan1974
                        Maybe if they but a ticket!
                        You don't think Ken Griffey Jr will sail into the Hall? He could retire right now and he'll be a first balloter. Look no further than Kirby Puckett - a well-liked CFer that sailed in. Only difference is, Griffey is a whole lot better than Puckett.

                        I am having a very difficult time reconciling the fact that you think Mickey Lolich should be in the Hall, but not Griffey, not Sheffield, not Bagwell, and not Thomas.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by DoubleX
                          I am having a very difficult time reconciling the fact that you think Mickey Lolich should be in the Hall, but not Griffey, not Sheffield, not Bagwell, and not Thomas.
                          And not Bonds! So, TigerFan, care to debate that one? Mickey Lolich belongs in the HOF but Barry Bonds doesn't. We should start a poll. Who's more Hall deserving, Bonds or Lolich?

                          And you can't say a word about steroids either, because you said McGwire is first ballot in your opinion.

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                          • #58
                            Advocating Lolich for the Hall and not supporting Griffey is like thinking that NSYNC should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and not Marvin Gaye.

                            Really dude, its really exactly like that!!
                            THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                            In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by 538280
                              And not Bonds! So, TigerFan, care to debate that one? Mickey Lolich belongs in the HOF but Barry Bonds doesn't. We should start a poll. Who's more Hall deserving, Bonds or Lolich?

                              And you can't say a word about steroids either, because you said McGwire is first ballot in your opinion.
                              Lolich is his own biased choice as a Tigers fan. Nothing more.
                              If you're going to do a poll, do it to legitimately gauge opinion, not to attempt to humiliate another user.
                              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                              • #60
                                :grouchy
                                Originally posted by Tigerfan1974
                                Maybe if they but a ticket!
                                Are you just trying to get a rise out of people? You have to know that Griffey is a lock for the hall and that Sheffield is also likely to go. You might not like them for some reason but that doesn't change what is likely to happen. If you are trying to get a rise out of people, I can respect that. I mean it might be a more fun hall of fame if you were in charge of who got in and who didn't. I'm sure the Tigers would be well represented in your hall.

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