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  • Sutter

    Contgrats to Sutter........Mastered perhaps the most devestating pitch in the last 30 years....splitter......DOes this open the door for ....

    Wagner Era 2.40.....284 saves?
    Hoffman Era 2.76....436 saves?

    Cavalier
    You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the $%#%! plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

  • #2
    Cavalier,

    All I can say is that if you ever saw Bruce Sutter pitch in 1977 your jaw would drop. After 1977, Sutter's split-fingered fastball was still a great pitch and he enjoyed a nice career. But in 1977 when he first came up with the pitch, the ball literally dropped off the table. It dropped about 3 feet. After that year it would only drop maybe 2 feet. The difference from 77 to 78 was noticeable. He was nearly unhittable in 1977.

    I am happy for Sutter but also happy for me. I have his autograph on 3 car brochures circa 1979 along with Dave Kingman and Rick Rueschel. I am not planning on selling it but that probably went up a little after today.
    "Batting slumps? I never had one. When a guy hits .358, he doesn't have slumps."

    Rogers Hornsby, 1961

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    • #3
      Originally posted by cavalier1968
      Wagner Era 2.40.....284 saves?
      Hoffman Era 2.76....436 saves?

      Cavalier
      Aren't you forgetting someone???

      This is who will be on that podium in 2014: MA-RI-A-NO
      Yankees '09

      Arod, CC, AJ, DJ and Tex

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Yankee Legend
        Aren't you forgetting someone???

        This is who will be on that podium in 2014: MA-RI-A-NO
        Rivera will get in. No one is forgeting him. But, the question is, with Sutter getting elected this year and Gossage very probably by 2008, would the two cavalier mentioned also get in.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
          Rivera will get in. No one is forgeting him. But, the question is, with Sutter getting elected this year and Gossage very probably by 2008, would the two cavalier mentioned also get in.
          If Gossage has a hard time getting in, I'm considering that Rivera may also. Many Yankee fans have theories about this, especially with Gossage. Anyway, very few closers other than Wilhelm and Fingers were ever enshrined anyway.

          I've never done a Gossage-to-Sutter stat check, but I'm presuming they're similar pitchers.

          Sutter's baseball-reference page was updated already: http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/suttebr01.shtml (see above "Pitching")
          Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
          Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
          THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
          Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mattingly
            If Gossage has a hard time getting in, I'm considering that Rivera may also. Many Yankee fans have theories about this, especially with Gossage. Anyway, very few closers other than Wilhelm and Fingers were ever enshrined anyway.

            I've never done a Gossage-to-Sutter stat check, but I'm presuming they're similar pitchers.

            Sutter's baseball-reference page was updated already: http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/suttebr01.shtml (see above "Pitching")
            They're pretty similar. Gossage had the longer career. He won't be on the ballot for 13 years like Sutter. That's the logical thinking, but, as we all know . . .
            Or, maybe we all don't . . .
            Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
            Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
              They're pretty similar. Gossage had the longer career. He won't be on the ballot for 13 years like Sutter. That's the logical thinking, but, as we all know . . .
              Or, maybe we all don't . . .
              I still say that Rivera will get shafted for more years than necessary, like Goose.

              Look at all these sportswriters who don't like the Yanks and George. Those are the same folks who'll be voting in a Yankee, or not voting him in. Just my feeling.

              Anyway, congrats to Bruce, and may Goose, Bert and others follow in your footsteps!
              Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
              Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
              THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
              Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Mattingly
                I still say that Rivera will get shafted for more years than necessary, like Goose.

                Look at all these sportswriters who don't like the Yanks and George. Those are the same folks who'll be voting in a Yankee, or not voting him in. Just my feeling.

                Anyway, congrats to Bruce, and may Goose, Bert and others follow in your footsteps!
                I think it depends who Rivera is up against on that first ballot. If he's going against some clear first-ballot position players or starting pitchers, he may have to wait a year or two. I call this the Carlton Fisk syndrome. Fisk would surely have been a first-timer if he was not up against George Brett, Robin Yount, and Nolan Ryan. Either way, I expect Rivera will make the Hall of Fame. He's just been too dominant, too high profile, too successful, and too hyped, to not make it within the first few years on the ballot.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DoubleX
                  I think it depends who Rivera is up against on that first ballot. If he's going against some clear first-ballot position players or starting pitchers, he may have to wait a year or two. I call this the Carlton Fisk syndrome. Fisk would surely have been a first-timer if he was not up against George Brett, Robin Yount, and Nolan Ryan. Either way, I expect Rivera will make the Hall of Fame. He's just been too dominant, too high profile, too successful, and too hyped, to not make it within the first few years on the ballot.
                  But what about Hoffman and Wagner? You know, the guys mentioned in the initial post.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
                    But what about Hoffman and Wagner? You know, the guys mentioned in the initial post.
                    Hoffman's in mine solidly, Wagner's the least deserving actually in mine.
                    I've got Hoffman nearly equal to Rivera, but because of the lack of post-season accomplishments and in San Diego, he'll probably have to wait a few years if ever getting in. I highly doubt Wagner will make it.
                    Johnson and now Goligoski gone.
                    I hope that's all.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
                      They're pretty similar. Gossage had the longer career.
                      Gossage had 767 more IP,
                      or more than the career of Wetteland, Nen and almost as many more as Eck, and Rivera so far
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                      • #12
                        To put Sutter in ahead of Gossage is simply wrong. There is no way to look at the careers of these guys and give the nod to Sutter.
                        Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                          Gossage had 767 more IP,
                          or more than the career of Wetteland, Nen and almost as many more as Eck, and Rivera so far
                          And yet he only saved 10 more games, which those not steeped in statistical analysis will look to first for relievers, then go from there. If Gossage was such a great closer, the question will come, why didn't he close more?
                          Longevity does not necessarily make someone a better candidate, (hello, Tommy John) it's what they do while they do it at their best. In terms of that, there isn't that much difference.
                          In one sense, Gossage will get in before Sutter. 9 years on the ballot as opposed to 13.
                          Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                          Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                          Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                          Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                          Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
                            And yet he only saved 10 more games, which those not steeped in statistical analysis will look to first for relievers, then go from there. If Gossage was such a great closer, the question will come, why didn't he close more?
                            Is it possible Gossage's teams didn't have as many late tenuous leads as Sutter's, or Sutter's teams had fewer relievers, ..?

                            <Longevity does not necessarily make someone a better candidate, (hello, Tommy John) it's what they do while they do it at their best.>

                            Hello, Mr. Koufax
                            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                              Is it possible Gossage's teams didn't have as many late tenuous leads as Sutter's, or Sutter's teams had fewer relievers, ..?

                              <Longevity does not necessarily make someone a better candidate, (hello, Tommy John) it's what they do while they do it at their best.>

                              Hello, Mr. Koufax
                              He is in, isn't he?
                              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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