Other Relief Pitchers?

[dgarza]

All pitchers with 550 Games Finished

Rk              Player  WAR ERA+  SV  GF    WPA  WHIP     IP From   To   Age    G  GS   W   L  ERA
1     Dennis Eckersley 58.7  116 390 577 31.139 1.161 3285.2 1975 1998 20-43 1071 361 197 171 3.50
2       Mariano Rivera 55.9  205 600 879 53.603 1.000 1207.0 1995 2011 25-41 1037  10  75  57 2.22
3         Hoyt Wilhelm 41.3  147 227 651 30.140 1.125 2254.1 1952 1972 29-49 1070  52 143 122 2.52
4         Rich Gossage 40.0  126 310 681 32.623 1.232 1809.1 1972 1994 20-42 1002  37 124 107 3.01
5       Trevor Hoffman 30.8  141 601 856 34.320 1.058 1089.1 1993 2010 25-42 1035   0  61  75 2.87
6            Lee Smith 30.3  132 478 802 21.409 1.256 1289.1 1980 1997 22-39 1022   6  71  92 3.03
7         Billy Wagner 29.7  187 422 703 29.172 0.998  903.0 1995 2010 23-38  853   0  47  40 2.31
8          John Franco 25.8  138 424 774 19.273 1.333 1245.2 1984 2005 23-44 1119   0  90  87 2.89
9         Kent Tekulve 24.8  132 184 638 14.305 1.250 1436.2 1974 1989 27-42 1050   0  94  90 2.85
10      Rollie Fingers 24.4  120 341 709 16.392 1.156 1701.1 1968 1985 21-38  944  37 114 118 2.90
11     Dan Quisenberry 24.3  147 244 553 20.844 1.175 1043.1 1979 1990 26-37  674   0  56  46 2.76
12      Lindy McDaniel 23.4  110 172 577  9.112 1.272 2139.1 1955 1975 19-39  987  74 141 119 3.45
13          Doug Jones 21.5  129 303 640 13.769 1.243 1128.1 1982 2000 25-43  846   4  69  79 3.30
14       Rick Aguilera 21.3  118 318 557  8.351 1.227 1291.1 1985 2000 23-38  732  89  86  81 3.57
15   Francisco Cordero 21.3  145 323 552 12.939 1.328  779.1 1999 2011 24-36  747   0  44  45 3.16
16        Jeff Reardon 20.3  122 367 695 14.868 1.199 1132.1 1979 1994 23-38  880   0  73  77 3.16
17         Sparky Lyle 19.6  128 238 634 14.538 1.275 1390.1 1967 1982 22-37  899   0  99  76 2.88
18   Roberto Hernandez 19.5  132 326 667  8.772 1.367 1071.1 1991 2007 26-42 1010   3  67  71 3.45
19            Roy Face 17.3  109 193 574  5.122 1.243 1375.0 1953 1969 25-41  848  27 104  95 3.48
20         Gene Garber 16.6  117 218 609  0.783 1.264 1510.0 1969 1988 21-40  931   9  96 113 3.34
21           Jose Mesa 11.4  101 321 633  6.237 1.472 1548.2 1987 2007 21-41 1022  95  80 109 4.36
22          Todd Jones 11.1  111 319 619 19.161 1.413 1072.0 1993 2008 25-40  982   1  58  63 3.97

What do people make of Tom Gordon?

Total games : 890 : 100.0%
Games started : 203 : 22.8%
Games in relief : 687 : 77.2%
Games finished : 347 : 39.0%
Games in relief (non-closer) : 340 : 38.2%

His WAR is 34.4. Of course, there were a few years in which he was primarily a starter, 1990, 1994-1997.
If we take out those seasons, his WAR is 22.1.
Even with those, he still has 57 other starts, so that would knock is relief WAR down even more. Perhaps close to 20.0?
This would place him close to Jesse Orosco, who has a WAR of 20.6, which includes only 4 starts.

So while even Jesse Orosco does not have the most resounding HOF case, I am more curious how these two players compare to each other in terms of over all value and relief value.

We don't discuss non-closers much in HOF threads. Mostly because none of them have strong HOF cases. But maybe the top two or three should at lest be looked at.

[Freakshow]

All pitchers with 550 Games Finished

Rk              Player  WAR ERA+  SV  GF    WPA  WHIP     IP From   To   Age    G  GS   W   L  ERA
1     Dennis Eckersley 58.7  116 390 577 31.139 1.161 3285.2 1975 1998 20-43 1071 361 197 171 3.50
2       Mariano Rivera 55.9  205 600 879 53.603 1.000 1207.0 1995 2011 25-41 1037  10  75  57 2.22
3         Hoyt Wilhelm 41.3  147 227 651 30.140 1.125 2254.1 1952 1972 29-49 1070  52 143 122 2.52
4         Rich Gossage 40.0  126 310 681 32.623 1.232 1809.1 1972 1994 20-42 1002  37 124 107 3.01
5       Trevor Hoffman 30.8  141 601 856 34.320 1.058 1089.1 1993 2010 25-42 1035   0  61  75 2.87
6            Lee Smith 30.3  132 478 802 21.409 1.256 1289.1 1980 1997 22-39 1022   6  71  92 3.03
7         Billy Wagner 29.7  187 422 703 29.172 0.998  903.0 1995 2010 23-38  853   0  47  40 2.31
8          John Franco 25.8  138 424 774 19.273 1.333 1245.2 1984 2005 23-44 1119   0  90  87 2.89
9         Kent Tekulve 24.8  132 184 638 14.305 1.250 1436.2 1974 1989 27-42 1050   0  94  90 2.85
10      Rollie Fingers 24.4  120 341 709 16.392 1.156 1701.1 1968 1985 21-38  944  37 114 118 2.90
11     Dan Quisenberry 24.3  147 244 553 20.844 1.175 1043.1 1979 1990 26-37  674   0  56  46 2.76
12      Lindy McDaniel 23.4  110 172 577  9.112 1.272 2139.1 1955 1975 19-39  987  74 141 119 3.45
13          Doug Jones 21.5  129 303 640 13.769 1.243 1128.1 1982 2000 25-43  846   4  69  79 3.30
14       Rick Aguilera 21.3  118 318 557  8.351 1.227 1291.1 1985 2000 23-38  732  89  86  81 3.57
15   Francisco Cordero 21.3  145 323 552 12.939 1.328  779.1 1999 2011 24-36  747   0  44  45 3.16
16        Jeff Reardon 20.3  122 367 695 14.868 1.199 1132.1 1979 1994 23-38  880   0  73  77 3.16
17         Sparky Lyle 19.6  128 238 634 14.538 1.275 1390.1 1967 1982 22-37  899   0  99  76 2.88
18   Roberto Hernandez 19.5  132 326 667  8.772 1.367 1071.1 1991 2007 26-42 1010   3  67  71 3.45
19            Roy Face 17.3  109 193 574  5.122 1.243 1375.0 1953 1969 25-41  848  27 104  95 3.48
20         Gene Garber 16.6  117 218 609  0.783 1.264 1510.0 1969 1988 21-40  931   9  96 113 3.34
21           Jose Mesa 11.4  101 321 633  6.237 1.472 1548.2 1987 2007 21-41 1022  95  80 109 4.36
22          Todd Jones 11.1  111 319 619 19.161 1.413 1072.0 1993 2008 25-40  982   1  58  63 3.97

[Cowtipper]

I was intrigued by this thread because it mentioned some people who aren't oft-discussed in terms of the Hall of Fame.

Of the relievers mentioned on this list, there are a few that I think deserve more Hall of Fame consideration:

Quisenberry, Henke, L. Smith, Tekulve, Lyle and Perranoski. I know Lyle and Perranoski will never get much discussion, but they are "pet" likes of mine that I think don't get enough respect for what they did.

Lee Smith especially doesn't get enough respect - perhaps it is because of his relatively high ERA of 3.03. However, among relief pitchers with at least 500 career appearances, he is one of only five with at least 30 WAR - the others being Hall of Famers or future Hall of Famers, including Hoffman, Gossage, Wilhelm and Rivera.

I would also like to throw out Clay Carroll, who I have gone back and forth in terms of Hall of Fame support.

[The Commissioner]

Rivera has to be the one true "no-brainer" on this list. He is the one name which would be a travesty were he not selected to Cooperstown.

Hoffman, belongs there as well. One or two more good seasons and he should be a definite.

I'm also probably one of the few that feels Lee Smith does deserve a spot in the Hall.

[RuthMayBond]

The Hall of Fame now has 4 relievers among its members - Dennis Eckersley, Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter and Hoyt Wilhelm - so it seems a "standard" for relief pitching is taking form.

What other relief pitchers belong in the Hall of Fame?
Goose Gossage, Dan Quisenberry

<Tom Henke>

<Lee Smith>

More so than Sutter

<John Franco>

If you don't mind one-inning guys

<What other relief pitchers, though outstanding, fall below the line?
Jesse Orosco?>

Probably below

<Kent Tekulve?>

Better than Sutter

<Sparky Lyle? Mike Marshall? Tug McGraw? John Hiller?>

Probably below, though Lyle and Hiller are close to Sutter

<Are there any pre-"save rule" pitchers who belong? Firpo Marberry? Johnny Murphy? Joe Page? Ron Perranoski? Dick Radatz? Lindy McDaniel?>

Probably not

<Recent retirees up to snuff?
John Wetteland? Rob Nenn? Steve Bedrosian? Jeff Reardon? Dave Righetti? Doug Jones? Jeff Montgomery? Rod Beck? Randy Myers?>

Probably not

<What are the prospects for the more prominent active relief pitchers?
Mariano Rivera? Trevor Hoffman?>

Almost certainly

<Billy Wagner? Armando Benitez?>

Too soon to tell

<Eric Gagne?>

WAY too soon to tell

<John Smoltz?>

Eckersley II

<Personally, I think the easiest decision about any of these candidates is that the line begins with Goose Gossage.>

Then it will be a SHORT line

[Chadwick]

The Hall of Fame now has 4 relievers among its members - Dennis Eckersley, Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter and Hoyt Wilhelm - so it seems a "standard" for relief pitching is taking form.

What other relief pitchers belong in the Hall of Fame?
Goose Gossage, Dan Quisenberry, Tom Henke, Lee Smith, John Franco?

What other relief pitchers, though outstanding, fall below the line?
Jesse Orosco? Kent Tekulve? Sparky Lyle? Mike Marshall? Tug McGraw? John Hiller?

Are there any pre-"save rule" pitchers who belong? Firpo Marberry? Johnny Murphy? Joe Page? Ron Perranoski? Dick Radatz? Lindy McDaniel?

Recent retirees up to snuff?
John Wetteland? Rob Nenn? Steve Bedrosian? Jeff Reardon? Dave Righetti? Doug Jones? Jeff Montgomery? Rod Beck? Randy Myers?

Remember these "flashes"?
Mark Davis? Bobby Thigpen? Gregg Olson? Willie Hernandez? Rob Dibble?

What are the prospects for the more prominent active relief pitchers?
Mariano Rivera? Trevor Hoffman? Billy Wagner? Armando Benitez? Eric Gagne? John Smoltz?

Any other names even worth mentioning in a discussion like this?
Duane Ward? Norm Charlton? Dan Plesac? Gene Garber? Roberto Hernandez?

Just trying to throw out names people may not have thought of. Curious which of these are/ought to be serious candidates, who you think have been forgotten by the electorate and where the line ought to be drawn between Hall-of-Famer and very-good-but-not-deserving-of-election.

Personally, I think the easiest decision about any of these candidates is that the line begins with Goose Gossage.