ALL THOSE First Basemen

[unfinished_business]

What about all those still active 1B-guys we have here?

Jeff Bagwell (born 5-27-68)
.297Avg 449HR .408OBP .540SLG
Frank Thomas (born 5-27-68)
.307 448 .427 .568

Rafael Palmeiro (though he is gone now i think)
.288 569 .371 .515

Todd Helton
.337 271 .433 .607

Carlos Delgado
.284 369 .393 .569

of course helton and delgado have still to play. but of all those guys i would consider Bagwell the frontrunner. he has the most homers of the guys (one more than Thomas when excluding Palmeiro who has his own case) and he was an excellent baserunner/basestealer a good fielder and played in the toughest ballpark (Astrodome).

Thomas is pretty much the David Ortiz of the 90s (a hitter only 1B). But he was the best hitting first basemen of the 90s.

Todd has an astonishing batting average (.337) but of course he is a Colorado Rockie playing at Coors and his power numbers have dropped the last few years. He is arguably the best fielder among these guys and like Delgado has still a way to go.
The last time Carlos has failed to hit 30HR was 1996 so he is a model of consistency - even when injured.

Speaking of consistency - RAFFY PALMEIRO: When you say he is/was clean you HAVE TO put him in the hall. i mean 500HR and 3000 Hits - try to top that. you can't say only he played so long because when you do that you have to throw out Don Sutton, Niekro and deny Cal Ripken (neither of these was really excellent at one point in their careers - they played just forever to acquire the numbers - like Palmeiro).
When you say Palmeiro was juiced he still has as good a case as McGwire, Sosa and Bonds.

I would put Bagwell in (along with Biggio) and let Thomas wait a little longer until letting him in. Helton has to hit at least 400HRs with more than .320 in his career to get my vote. And Delgado has to do his thing for five more years (giving pretty him much 500HRs).

And Raffy??????????????

[ElHalo]

Thomas and Bagwell are locks. Palmeiro would be if he didn't have this steroid cloud hanging over him; unlike Bonds, he's not such a good player that he's an absolute lock despite the black marks. Helton should be but probably won't, Delgado no chance. Pujols is 99%, unless he gets injured.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

My Rankings

1. Thomas
2. Bagwell
3. Palmeiro (How the HoF voters will react in 5-6 years is unknown)
4. Delgado (needs more work)
6. Helton (Needs more work. How the HoF voters will look at Helton's Coors Field numbers, I have no idea.)

[The Commissioner]

Thomas and Bagwell are locks. Palmeiro would be if he didn't have this steroid cloud hanging over him; unlike Bonds, he's not such a good player that he's an absolute lock despite the black marks. Helton should be but probably won't, Delgado no chance. Pujols is 99%, unless he gets injured.

I'm curious why you would say that Delgado has "no chance" at this point? I'd actually say that a couple more good seasons should put him there.

[Chadwick]

Bagwell - top 5 all-time; remains underrated
Thomas - top 25 all-time hitter, still a shoo-in
Palmeiro - don't know enough facts to keep him out forever
-----------------------------------------------------------
Thome - most likely to join above trio
Delgado - uncertain at this point, hitting in Shea won't help
Helton - Helton, not Walker will become the Coors test case
Pujols - stay healthy, make Hall

[ElHalo]

I'm curious why you would say that Delgado has "no chance" at this point? I'd actually say that a couple more good seasons should put him there.

I could go into a long winded spiel about how he's never really been an elite type player (i.e., one of the best in the game), and has never really been a standout, but all I really need to say is:

The guy's only been an all star twice. For a guy who doesn't have a whole lot of credentials in terms of big numbers or WS or anything, he's got to be more consistently one of the best at his position than that.

[unfinished_business]

how could i forget Thome with 430HRs:noidea

i would rank them like this

bagwell (best all-around)
thomas (best hitter)
----------(the line to the HOF)----------------
Thome (has to get 500 for me)
Helton (has way to go)
Delgado (has way to go - he had two great seasons in 2000 and 2003 by the way)

I wouldn't consider Pujols yet because he is only halfway up the road!

(Helton will begin his tenth season in 2006)

[538280]

I could go into a long winded spiel about how he's never really been an elite type player (i.e., one of the best in the game), and has never really been a standout, but all I really need to say is:

The guy's only been an all star twice. For a guy who doesn't have a whole lot of credentials in terms of big numbers or WS or anything, he's got to be more consistently one of the best at his position than that.

I've talked to you about this before. What isn't elite about Delgado? He was almost certainly the best hitter in the AL in 2000 and 2003. He has to this point only made two all star teams. So what? Robin Yount only made three All Star Games, Frank Thomas only made three. Frank Malzone made seven. Dave Chalk I believe made three. The All Star Game is a rye for the most part. The starters are determined by fan balloting, who are more concerned with the visibility of a player than his stats from that year. Delgado has always been low profile because A)He can't speak English well, and B)He played in Toronto. You watch, now that he gets to play with the Mets in New York he'll make the All Star Game a few more times.

[ElHalo]

I've talked to you about this before. What isn't elite about Delgado? He was almost certainly the best hitter in the AL in 2000 and 2003. He has to this point only made two all star teams. So what? Robin Yount only made three All Star Games, Frank Thomas only made three. Frank Malzone made seven. Dave Chalk I believe made three. The All Star Game is a rye for the most part. The starters are determined by fan balloting, who are more concerned with the visibility of a player than his stats from that year. Delgado has always been low profile because A)He can't speak English well, and B)He played in Toronto. You watch, now that he gets to play with the Mets in New York he'll make the All Star Game a few more times.

First off, I've seen you use this term six or seven times today, and it makes me feel really, really old.

What's a rye?

Second... what? How was he the best hitter in the AL in 2000? How was he as good as Giambi, Manny, ARod... even Nomar? In 2003, I guess you can give it to him, but 2003 was a terrible year for offense in the AL... Bill Friggin Mueller won the batting title. He did lead in OPS in 2003, but he's never led in OBP or SLG, and only has that one top 10 in BA. He's just not a very special player. I know that whenever I've thought of the top 5 1Bmen in the game, his name's never come up... and that's not really something you want to be able to say about a HoF'er.

[538280]

First off, I've seen you use this term six or seven times today, and it makes me feel really, really old.

What's a rye?

I don't really know how widely used it is, but it's a term I've always used to mean something that means nothing. Like me saying the All Star Game is a rye is saying that its selection process of who goes in is unfair and they often cheat players for no good reason. Really, can you believe Frank Thomas and Robin Yount have only made 3 All Star Games?

Second... what? How was he the best hitter in the AL in 2000? How was he as good as Giambi, Manny, ARod... even Nomar? In 2003, I guess you can give it to him, but 2003 was a terrible year for offense in the AL... Bill Friggin Mueller won the batting title. He did lead in OPS in 2003, but he's never led in OBP or SLG, and only has that one top 10 in BA. He's just not a very special player. I know that whenever I've thought of the top 5 1Bmen in the game, his name's never come up... and that's not really something you want to be able to say about a HoF'er.

He led the league in runs created and RC/27 in 2000 and was second in OBP and SLG. I guess he may not have been the best hitter, but it's not unreasonable to claim that he was.

Part of the reason why you may have never thought of him as a top 1B is because of all the other great 1B there have been recently. Bagwell, Thomas, McGwire, Palmeiro, Will Clark, Pujols, Giambi, Thome, McGriff, Mo Vaughn, Tino Martinez, Olerud, Derrek Lee, Marck Grace, Galarraga, Joyner, and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. That's a lot of other great 1B for Delgado to hide behind. The fact so many other greats at his own position were playing at the same time as him isn't his fault, it's just how things turned out. What you're saying is basically the age old argument against Richie Ashburn. How can he be a HOFer when he was the 4th best CF of his era? It's the same with Delgado. Just like Ashburn, he can still be a HOFer.

[538280]

You know, EH, I'm not neccesarily suggesting that if Delgado retired now he'd be a HOFer, just want to clear that up. I'm just suggesting that he has a very good shot at the Hall rather than "no shot" as you said.

I'd also like to bring up another thing about the All Star Games argument. I thought-Is two All Star Games at this point in his career really all that bad? Going to New York where as long as he plays pretty well his popularity will soar he's probably guaranteed to at least double that total and probably get even more. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up with 6 or 7 All Star Games by the end of his career, not that it really means much anyway though.

Maybe I am a bit biased, because Delgado always has been one of my favorite players, ever since he came up. With his recent actions in regard to God Bless America, my liking for him has again really resurfaced. He is one of my favorite modern players.

[ElHalo]

You know, EH, I'm not neccesarily suggesting that if Delgado retired now he'd be a HOFer, just want to clear that up. I'm just suggesting that he has a very good shot at the Hall rather than "no shot" as you said.

I'd also like to bring up another thing about the All Star Games argument. I thought-Is two All Star Games at this point in his career really all that bad? Going to New York where as long as he plays pretty well his popularity will soar he's probably guaranteed to at least double that total and probably get even more. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up with 6 or 7 All Star Games by the end of his career, not that it really means much anyway though.

Maybe I am a bit biased, because Delgado always has been one of my favorite players, ever since he came up. With his recent actions in regard to God Bless America, my liking for him has again really resurfaced. He is one of my favorite modern players.

In fairness, I probably give the guy less credit than he deserves, because he's had some less than admirable nicknames in my mind over the years... from "That guy on the Blue Jays who's not as good as Sean Green" in the 90's, to "That guy who hit .340 once but really isn't even a .280 hitter" by 2002 to "How the hell did he get 145 RBI on THAT team?" in 2003 to "Oh well, his career's over, let me stop even pretending to pay attention" by 2004. To be perfectly honest, it was August of this year before I realized that he hadn't pulled a Ken Griffey Jr. in Cincinatti deal with Marlins and was actually playing; I just assumed that the guy was Mo Vaughning his way out of the league. The guy's just really, really, REALLY under the radar, and I guess I possibly underrate him for that. I suppose a big part of my opinion was based on my belief that 2003 was going to be his last productive season, and that he'd be a 70 game a year guy, at best, from here on out, but that was without really paying attention to his 2005 numbers.

[538280]

In fairness, I probably give the guy less credit than he deserves, because he's had some less than admirable nicknames in my mind over the years... from "That guy on the Blue Jays who's not as good as Sean Green" in the 90's, to "That guy who hit .340 once but really isn't even a .280 hitter" by 2002 to "How the hell did he get 145 RBI on THAT team?" in 2003 to "Oh well, his career's over, let me stop even pretending to pay attention" by 2004. To be perfectly honest, it was August of this year before I realized that he hadn't pulled a Ken Griffey Jr. in Cincinatti deal with Marlins and was actually playing; I just assumed that the guy was Mo Vaughning his way out of the league. The guy's just really, really, REALLY under the radar, and I guess I possibly underrate him for that. I suppose a big part of my opinion was based on my belief that 2003 was going to be his last productive season, and that he'd be a 70 game a year guy, at best, from here on out, but that was without really paying attention to his 2005 numbers.

I actually wasn't expecting Delgado to do all that much after his bad 2004 either, sadly. But, his 2005 was certainly a monster hitting season given the conditions he was playing under. Playing in a really tough park to hit in, with very little protection in the lineup he was still able to post a 161 OPS+. Actually, he was a very similar hitter to Pujols last year.

Delgado, like I said, gets a lot of sympathy from me as well because he is strictly left wing (sorry for the short political connection, mods can delete this if you really want to).

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I actually wasn't expecting Delgado to do all that much after his bad 2004 either, sadly. But, his 2005 was certainly a monster hitting season given the conditions he was playing under. Playing in a really tough park to hit in, with very little protection in the lineup he was still able to post a 161 OPS+. Actually, he was a very similar hitter to Pujols last year.

Delgado, like I said, gets a lot of sympathy from me as well because he is strictly left wing (sorry for the short political connection, mods can delete this if you really want to).

What? Delgado is a commie? :noidea That's a shame.

[ElHalo]

I actually wasn't expecting Delgado to do all that much after his bad 2004 either, sadly. But, his 2005 was certainly a monster hitting season given the conditions he was playing under. Playing in a really tough park to hit in, with very little protection in the lineup he was still able to post a 161 OPS+. Actually, he was a very similar hitter to Pujols last year.

Chris, I'm going to say, I've disagreed with you quite a lot on a lot of baseball issues in the past, but the other part of this post that you made, the part I didn't quote here, I agree with you wholeheartedly and enthusiastically on. I actually had forgotten that about Carlos, and it definitely bumps him up a notch in my estimation now that I recall it.