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400 Win Shares and the HOF

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  • 400 Win Shares and the HOF

    Bill James has outlined a number of "qualifications" for potential members of the Hall of Fame -- His Black Ink Test, Grey Ink Test and the like. But perhaps the most simple and accurate test is the player's Total Win Shares for his career.

    In his book "Win Shares" Bill James lists 44 players with career "Total Win Shares" of 400 or more. 39 of this group are already in the Hall of Fame -- and four of the other five are stars who who should be elected on their first HOF ballot:
    Barry Bonds 572 (thru 2002)
    Rickey Henderson 530
    Cal Ripken, Jr. 427
    Paul Molitor 414
    Of course, the fifth player over 400 is Pete Rose (547 WS)

    IMO there should be no question on the HOF qualifications of anyone with 400+ Win Shares. In fact, most eligible players with 350 WS or more are already in the Hall of Fame.

    The most contraversial members seem to be players with less than 300 career Win Shares (Luis Apparico 293? Kiki Cuyler 292? George Sisler 292? Kirby Puckett 281? Bill Terry 278? Ed Walsh 265? Lloyd Waner 245?) Players with fewer than 300 Win Shares may still belong because of a few great seasons, but anyone over 400 should be almost automatic.

    If only 44 players have so far achieved the 400 WS standard, then a few about to be voted on should be easy choices: Bonds, Henderson, Ripken and Molitor are over 400 (as listed above) --plus Tony Gwynn 398 and Wade Boggs 394. Any argument on these six candidates?
    Luke

  • #2
    Well, as probably a direct result, if you have 400 win shares, you have the other numbers you need to get into the HOF.

    Comment


    • #3
      Could not have put it better than Sandman, so, just voicing my agreement.
      http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

      Comment


      • #4
        While I oppose automatic induction based on any statistic, I do agree that, in my own mind, these guys are shoo-ins at the point they cross that threshold. In fact, I believe that James said he considered 300+ to be Hall of Fame worthy (except for pitchers and catchers, who tend, generally, to be about 50 ws behind).
        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

        Comment


        • #5
          except for Bert

          Originally posted by Chancellor
          ...In fact, I believe that James said he considered 300+ to be Hall of Fame worthy (except for pitchers and catchers, who tend, generally, to be about 50 ws behind).
          Except for Bert Blylevin, who has 339 career Win Shares but is still on the outside. More Win Shares than Nolan Ryan, Fergie Jenkins, Don Sutton, Bob Gibson, Ted Lyons, Jim Palmer, Early Wynn, Carl Hubbell, Bob Feller, Hal Newhouser, Whitey Ford, Bob Lemon, Sandy Koufax and many other HOF pitchers who had shorter careers but had at least one dominating season.

          I realize Bert lacks any truly GREAT season -- no Cy Young Awards and no 30 Win Share seasons.
          Luke

          Comment


          • #6
            I meant that James was saying he looked at 300 ws as qualifying a player as deserving of the Hall, not necessarily that all 300+ ws players were in the Hall of Fame.

            Blyleven is amazingly underrated and certainly deserves a spot in the Hall.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

            Comment


            • #7
              Of the top 110 players (career Win Shares 334 or higher) I find only 14 eligible players who have so far been passed over by the Hall: Tony Mullane 399 (1881-94); Bill Dahlen 394 (1891-1911); Darrell Evans 363 (1969-89); Rusty Staub 358 (1963-85); Sherry Magee 354 (1904-19); Lou Whitaker 351 (1977-95); Dwight Evans 347 (1972-91); Ryne Sandberg 346 (1981-97); George Van Haltren 344 (1887-1903); Dick Allen 342; Bert Blyleven 339; Jimmy Sheckard 339; Bob Caruthers 337; and JIm McCormick 334.

              To these we can add active players and others who have not yet appeared on the HOF ballot: Pete Rose 547, Rickey Henderson 530, Cal Ripken Jr. 427, Paul Molitor 414, Tony Gwynn 398, Wade Boggs 394, Tim Raines 390, Roger Clemens 352, Roberto Alomar 345, Craig Biggio 342, Mark McGwire 342, and Rafael Palmeiro 334.

              Most "borderline" players in the HOF have fewer than 300 career Win Shares.
              Last edited by Appling; 05-10-2003, 07:07 PM.
              Luke

              Comment


              • #8
                Lou Whitaker 351
                Ryne Sandberg 346
                Roberto Alomar 345
                Craig Biggio 342

                Just somethin' I noticed...
                http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

                Comment


                • #9
                  All four are possible but none is a "lock" for the Hall of Fame.
                  Luke

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                  • #10
                    ...I was just noticing, Appling, that they are all second baseman with remarkably similar career win shares.

                    But, since you mention it, here's how they stack up against the others:

                    Eddie Collins - 574
                    Joe Morgan - 512
                    Rogers Hornsby - 502
                    Nap Lajoie - 496

                    These are the only second baseman in history with over 400 win shares.

                    Rod Carew - 384
                    Charlie Gehringer - 383
                    Frankie Frisch - 366
                    Lou Whitaker - 351
                    Ryne Sandberg - 346
                    Roberto Alomar - 345
                    Craig Biggio - 342

                    Bobby Grich - 329
                    Willie Randolph - 312
                    Bid McPhee - 305
                    Nellie Fox - 304

                    That's it for 300. And the other HOFers:

                    Billie Herman - 298
                    Bobby Doerr - 281
                    Johnny Evers - 268
                    Red Schoendienst - 262
                    *Jackie Robinson - 257
                    Tony Lazzeri - 252
                    Bill Mazeroski - 219
                    http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Appling
                      All four are possible but none is a "lock" for the Hall of Fame.
                      If you don't think Sandberg or Alomar are "locks," then you must be talking about a different Hall of Fame than the one in Cooperstown.
                      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by J W:
                        "That's it for 300. And the other HOFers:

                        Billie Herman - 298
                        Bobby Doerr - 281
                        Johnny Evers - 268
                        Red Schoendienst - 262
                        *Jackie Robinson - 257
                        Tony Lazzeri - 252
                        Bill Mazeroski - 219"




                        what's does the * indicate in front of JR's name?





                        razors

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          * means Jackie, a slam-dunk HOFer, had a short career due to special circumstances and therefore has a low Career Win Shares.
                          http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Where does Jeff Kent fit in?

                            Originally posted by J W
                            ...I was just noticing, Appling, that they are all second baseman with remarkably similar career win shares.

                            But, since you mention it, here's how they stack up against the others:

                            Eddie Collins - 574
                            Joe Morgan - 512
                            Rogers Hornsby - 502
                            Nap Lajoie - 496

                            These are the only second baseman in history with over 400 win shares.

                            Rod Carew - 384
                            Charlie Gehringer - 383
                            Frankie Frisch - 366
                            Lou Whitaker - 351
                            Ryne Sandberg - 346
                            Roberto Alomar - 345
                            Craig Biggio - 342

                            Bobby Grich - 329
                            Willie Randolph - 312
                            Bid McPhee - 305
                            Nellie Fox - 304

                            That's it for 300. And the other HOFers:

                            Billie Herman - 298
                            Bobby Doerr - 281
                            Johnny Evers - 268
                            Red Schoendienst - 262
                            *Jackie Robinson - 257
                            Tony Lazzeri - 252
                            Bill Mazeroski - 219

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cougar
                              Where does Jeff Kent fit in?
                              Bill James' book shows Jeff Kent with 197 career win shares thru the 2001 season. For the seasons 2000-2001 only, Kent has 64 win shares; just four players are ahead of Kent for these two seasons: Barry Bonds 86; Jason Giambi 76; Alex Rodriguez 74; and Sammy Sosa 72.

                              I need to look elsewhere for WS data on the 2002 season.
                              Luke

                              Comment

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