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  • Chadwick
    replied
    Originally posted by Appling
    Do you think Kevin Brown will make it ahead of Bert Blyleven? Or Gary Sheffield ahead of Jim Rice and Tony Oliva?
    I think Kevin Brown probably "deserves" election. He's one of an appropriate number of Hall-worthy pitchers during his "era", he's had the "peak" seasons (leading two teams to the World Series), and his career numbers exceed the minimum 1/3rd of Hall pitchers rather comfortably when you consider that he pitched primarily (a) in the "steroid era", and (b) exclusively in the era of the five-man rotation.

    Brown is 211-144 (.594) lifetime with a 3.28 ERA (127 ERA+) in 3,256.3 innings. To my mind, that's a Hall-worthy career.

    As for your direct questions, I think Blyleven will be selected long before Brown is (and probably before Brown hits the ballot.) I think Sheffield will be elected ahead of Rice and Oliva unless the VC is restructured again into a more induction-friendly process. (Rice just missed his best chance on the BBWAA ballot and will be falling off soon.) All of the players you named have my vote (for what it's worth).

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  • SamtheBravesFan
    replied
    Originally posted by iPod
    What do you guys think is the most wins a team has ever had without sending one of its members to the Hall? The 2001 Mariners would easily take the cake here, but Ichiro stands a pretty good chance if he stays in the league 10 years, and Edgar Martinez has an outside shot at it. Maybe the 2002 A's, but for that to be true, Zito, Hudson and Mulder all have to miss the Hall... which I think they probably will but maybe not.
    Depends on how long they last and how good they do, of course. I think you've hit the nail on the head. I can't think of anyone else.

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  • iPod
    replied
    What do you guys think is the most wins a team has ever had without sending one of its members to the Hall? The 2001 Mariners would easily take the cake here, but Ichiro stands a pretty good chance if he stays in the league 10 years, and Edgar Martinez has an outside shot at it. Maybe the 2002 A's, but for that to be true, Zito, Hudson and Mulder all have to miss the Hall... which I think they probably will but maybe not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Appling
    replied
    Originally posted by Chancellor
    Teams erroneously mentioned in initial post:
    1981 Dodgers - Tommy Lasorda is in the Hall
    1984 Tigers - Sparky Anderson is in the Hall; Trammell, Whitaker, Evans and Parrish should be
    1989 Athletics - Dennis Eckersley is in the Hall; Henderson, LaRussa and McGwire should be
    I never thought about the managers on these WS squads. I was thinking only of roster players, but maybe having a HOF manager helps a team "win it all" without a HOF roster player. Or maybe winning without a superstar is what puts a manager in the Hall of Fame!

    I totally missed it on Eckersley. Henderson and McGwire will both surely make it to the Hall as well, so perhaps it is a bit early to Close the Book on a 1989 WS team.

    My forgeting about Eckersley may be a Freudian slip ... I still have trouble putting a pitcher in the Hall of Fame based only on his performance as a closer. If -- as stated in many other threads -- there is no such thing as a "clutch" hitter, then there must also be no "clutch pitchers". But if you can't give lots of credit for "succeeding in a clutch situation" I see no reason for honoring a pitcher who tosses less than 100 innings per year.

    Good work on your looking ahead to future HOF players on WS championship teams. Thanks.
    Do you think Kevin Brown will make it ahead of Bert Blyleven? Or Gary Sheffield ahead of Jim Rice and Tony Oliva?
    Last edited by Appling; 01-20-2006, 06:00 PM.

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  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Chancellor
    Teams erroneously mentioned in initial post:
    1981 Dodgers - Tommy Lasorda is in the Hall
    1984 Tigers - Sparky Anderson is in the Hall; Trammell, Whitaker, Evans and Parrish should be
    1989 Athletics - Dennis Eckersley is in the Hall; Henderson, LaRussa and McGwire should be

    A brief tour of WS Champs without HOF representation:
    Year Team Players Who Ought To Be Elected
    1990 Reds - Larkin
    1995 Braves - Glavine, Jones, Maddux, McGriff and Smoltz
    1997 Marlins - Brown and Sheffield
    1998 Yankees - Jeter, Raines, Rivera and Williams
    1999 Yankees - Clemens, Jeter, Rivera and Williams
    2000 Yankees - Clemens, Jeter, Rivera and Williams
    2001 Diamondbacks - Johnson and Schilling
    2002 Angels - none (Glaus, Rodriguez have best prospects)
    2003 Marlins - Rodriguez and ???
    2004 Red Sox - Martinez, Ramirez and Schilling
    2005 White Sox - Thomas and ???
    You beat me to it! You think Kevin Brown "ought" to make the Hall one day?

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Appling
    But it still fascinates me to learn that EVERY World Series championship team prior to 1980 had at least one future HOF player on the roster -- but four teams in the 1980's did not. What has changed?
    In general, the writers haven't given much respect to the players from the 80s. Murphy, Parker, and Trammell all get less support than they should. Mattingly gets very little support. Dawson and Rice can't seem to get over the hump. It took Gary Carter and Ryne Sandberg both a number of years to get in. Lou Whitaker and Joe Carter were dropped from the ballot altogether.

    Also, from your original post, the 1989 A's already have a Hall of Famer - Dennis Eckersley, and Rickey Henderson will definitely get in, as will McGwire eventually as well.

    The 1990 Reds should have Barry Larkin, so that will leave just three teams from the decade. Still very interesting though that 3 from a decade and none before that. I wonder how the 90's will shape up. Let's see...

    1990 - Reds: Barry Larkin should make it.

    1991 - Twins: Kirby Puckett is already in. Jack Morris might one day make it (that would also cure the '84 Tigers).

    1992 - Blue Jays: Dave Winfield is already in (he had a very nice year in '92, at age 40). Roberto Alomar should make it. Jeff Kent has a good chance too. Jack Morris also.

    1993 - Blue Jays: Paul Molitor is already in. Rickey Henderson will make it. Roberto Alomar should make it. Jack Morris again.

    1994 - No Series.

    1995 - Braves: Greg Maddux and Tom Glavinewill make it. Chipper Jones should have a good shot. Fred McGriff could make it one day. John Smoltz may make it as well.

    1996 - Yankees: Wade Boggs is already in. Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera will make it. Tim Raines should make it. Bernie Williams has an outside shot.

    1997 - Marlins: Gary Sheffield has a very good shot.

    1998 - Yankees: Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera will make it. Tim Raines should make it. Bernie Williams has an outside shot.

    1999 - Yankees: Roger Clemens, Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera will make it. Bernie Williams has an outside shot.

    2000 - Yankees: Roger Clemens, Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera will make it. Bernie Williams has an outside shot.

    And just for the fun of it (even though it's probably premature for some of these years):

    2001 - Diamondbacks: Randy Johnson will make it. Curt Schilling has a good shot.

    2002 - Angels: Now this is a team that may very well end up with no Hall of Famers. In fact, I'd say it's extremely likely that there will be no Hall of Famers from the 2002 Angels.

    2003 - Marlins: Ivan Rodriguez will make it. Too early to tell for the rest of this team (most notably Dontrelle Wills and Derrek Lee if he keeps going like last season).

    2004 - Red Sox: Pedro Martinez and Manny Ramirez will make it. Curt Schilling has a good shot.

    2005 - White Sox: Frank Thomas will make it. Otherwise, it's very early, but this team looks a lot like the 2002 Angels. Solid players all around, some pretty good players, but no one that really stands out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    Teams erroneously mentioned in initial post:
    1981 Dodgers - Tommy Lasorda is in the Hall
    1984 Tigers - Sparky Anderson is in the Hall; Trammell, Whitaker, Evans and Parrish should be
    1989 Athletics - Dennis Eckersley is in the Hall; Henderson, LaRussa and McGwire should be

    A brief tour of WS Champs without HOF representation:
    Year Team Players Who Ought To Be Elected
    1990 Reds - Larkin
    1995 Braves - Glavine, Jones, Maddux, McGriff and Smoltz
    1997 Marlins - Brown and Sheffield
    1998 Yankees - Jeter, Raines, Rivera and Williams
    1999 Yankees - Clemens, Jeter, Rivera and Williams
    2000 Yankees - Clemens, Jeter, Rivera and Williams
    2001 Diamondbacks - Johnson and Schilling
    2002 Angels - none (Glaus, Rodriguez have best prospects)
    2003 Marlins - Rodriguez and ???
    2004 Red Sox - Martinez, Ramirez and Schilling
    2005 White Sox - Thomas and ???

    Leave a comment:


  • Appling
    replied
    Originally posted by The Commissioner
    Frank Thomas is a future Hall of Famer. While he's a long shot, it's still too early to count out Konerko.
    There may be other HOF players (as Thomas will be) who happened to be on World Series Champion rosters but were not the major force in getting them there. Players whose best years are behind them, who sort of "went along for the ride".

    But it still fascinates me to learn that EVERY World Series championship team prior to 1980 had at least one future HOF player on the roster -- but four teams in the 1980's did not. What has changed?

    Is it easier for a star player's numbers to stand out if he plays for a weak team? Do we measure HOF potential today mostly by numbers, while in the past just leading his team to a WS was in itself a major factor in his HOF bid?

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar
    One could make the case that those guys you list could be in that spot after the top 10, and I wouldn't put up a fight. In particular, I think I really missed Lollar, who's right there with Crandall, and perhaps even a bit better. After that, ranking gets pretty subjective pretty fast.
    Yeah I was about to say, you can't have Crandall without Lollar. Their careers are very similar, with Lollar maybe being a tad better.

    My list to gets very iffy after the first half.

    Leave a comment:


  • iPod
    replied
    Originally posted by The Commissioner
    Frank Thomas is a future Hall of Famer. While he's a long shot, it's still too early to count out Konerko.
    Forgot he was on that team, to be honest. OK, they skate through on a technicality.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    We're pretty much the same until the very end of your top 10. I have some catchers from the 40s and 50s ahead of Boone, Pena, Santiago, McCarver and Sundberg. In addition to Del Crandall (whom you have), I have Sherm Lollar, Walker Cooper, and Smokey Burgess. Gene Tenace is another guy I have in there.
    I'm not very committed to the list once you get to the very back end there. I'm just partial to strong defense, longer career types in the catcher spot, and all those fellows more or less fit the bill. (Basically, they were "guys a lot like Boone but not as good for some reason.")

    One could make the case that those guys you list could be in that spot after the top 10, and I wouldn't put up a fight. In particular, I think I really missed Lollar, who's right there with Crandall, and perhaps even a bit better. After that, ranking gets pretty subjective pretty fast.
    Last edited by Cougar; 01-19-2006, 11:14 PM.

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  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by The Commissioner
    Frank Thomas is a future Hall of Famer. While he's a long shot, it's still too early to count out Konerko.
    Ironically, Thomas played virtually no role in the White Sox triumph in 2005.

    Leave a comment:


  • digglahhh
    replied
    Originally posted by iPod
    Buerhle stands the best chance, and most people I've talked to face to face don't even know who he is.
    You talked to Greg Maddux in person, cool!!

    Leave a comment:


  • The Commissioner
    replied
    Originally posted by iPod
    Add the '05 White Sox to that list, also. I seriously doubt any of them will reach Cooperstown. Buerhle stands the best chance, and most people I've talked to face to face don't even know who he is.
    Frank Thomas is a future Hall of Famer. While he's a long shot, it's still too early to count out Konerko.

    Leave a comment:


  • iPod
    replied
    Add the '05 White Sox to that list, also. I seriously doubt any of them will reach Cooperstown. Buerhle stands the best chance, and most people I've talked to face to face don't even know who he is.

    Leave a comment:

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