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Edgar Martinez in the Hall??

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  • Edgar Martinez in the Hall??

    Yes, I know it might be tough for him to make the Hall being a DH
    for most of his career, but he is the best DH of all time...Just because he only bats and doesn't play the field you shouldn't penalized him for that...He is filling a role...Somebody has to DH in the game!!!

    What's your thoughts on it!!!!

    Some of his stats:
    Career .954 OPS
    Career .424 on base per.
    Career .317 batting avg.
    closing on 300 HR's
    over 2,000 hits
    closing in on 500 doubles
    two batting titles
    One RBI title
    1,130 runs
    1,147 RBI'S
    1,163 walks
    151
    Yes
    52.98%
    80
    No
    33.77%
    51
    Undicided
    13.25%
    20
    Last edited by Peggin_Maniac; 06-06-2003, 02:55 PM.
    "A ball bat is a wondrous weapon." - Ty Cobb

    "Luck is the great stabilizer in baseball." - Tris Speaker

    "I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball." - Pete Rose

    "You wait for a strike, then you knock the #$%^ out of it." - Stan Musial

    "GO M'S"

  • #2
    What hurt Edgar was the late start he had. He made the bigs at age 24 and while he had strong seasons in ‘90 and ‘91, his breakthrough season wasn’t until 1992 -- and by then he was 29 years old.

    At this point in time, I say no -- Edgar is not getting in. The guy certainly had some terrific seasons (including the one in 2000, which was one of the greatest seasons ever turned in by a 37-year-old player -- definitely ranks up there with anything Bonds or Teddy did at that age). But I don't think he’s done enough to warrant election into the Hall.
    1904 • 1920 • 1960 • 1963 • 1974 • 1980 • 2001

    Any questions?

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't think the writers would vote for him.

      But I'll say this: when the time comes, if the time comes, Edgar will be the first full-time DH elected into the Hall.

      Career DHs (NOT Frank Thomas or some other converted DH)... career DHs generally don't have HOF numbers, even offensively. DHs are usually marginal players who are above-average offensively and not so hot with the glove. It's very rare that someone is called up from the minors and it becomes quickly evident that DH is the best/only position for him... and then he becomes an iconic character. Edgar is the only example I can think of.

      Of course, players who have spent nearly their entire careers as a DH make up a short list anyway. Maybe more time will tell.
      Last edited by J W; 06-06-2003, 11:57 PM.
      http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

      Comment


      • #4
        Edgar Martinex SHOULD NEVER be elected into Cooperstown and YES you can hold the fact that he only bats against him and I do. He essentially plays only half the game and if you only play half the game you better be twice as good as anybody else at it or you aren't all that special.

        The DH is the most abhorent rule in all of professional sports. I mean it is such a ludicrous notion I am not sure how or why it was ever instituted in the first place. Aside from baseball's exclussionary practices of yesteryear the DH is single worst thing about the game??? really what excitement does it really add??? I would much rather see Roger Clemens have to pick up a bat and step in the batters box then to see some mediocre DH. Now Edgar is an exceptional DH but he is also the exception and being a GREAT DH doesn't amount to a hell of a lot anyway...I mean at present at Edgar is the ONLY DH with an average of more then .276 do people really hate seeing pitchers hit to the point they want Josh Phelps and Brad Fullmer in the line-up so badly???

        If we want excitement hos about a Designated Runner... i mean that way we could all be spared being forced to watch benji Molina run the bases...instead the Angels could hire Rickey Henderson and he could run f or Benji??/ i mean imagine all the close plays at home...the added runs it could generate the reintroduction of the stolen base into today's game??? time Raines might still be playing same too with Vince Coleman and Otis Nixon....Would Davey Lopes have been able to extend his career and get into Cooperstown??? What about Brett Butler???

        If Edgar wants in Cooperstown he can buy a ticket in order for me to even consider a DH worthy he would have to achieve some monster numbers for not only individual seasons but a career as well..

        I am talking 700HR 2000RBI 4000Hits or a .350+ lifetime batting average......

        Even a DH with 3000Hits and 5000 HR wouldn't be a Hall of Famer IMO as when you don't play the field you miss half the game..

        Frank Thomas is also IMO as full time a DH as it gets...his career numbers have always been better when he plays 1B as opposed to when he DH's but he has also desired to NOT play the field??? I mean Edgar and Frank actually LIKE sitting on the bench??? If I was a big league ball player I want to be out there for EVERY PLAY and anyone with the attitude of if they abolished the DH I woudl retire (Something Edgar has said.) is a disgrace to the game.
        GO CARDINALS!!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          If Edgar is on the record as stating that he would retire if the end the era of the DH, then I am disappointed. I try not to go on a rant about this topic because, as you can see, I feel strongly about it too. But I don't want to sound like a paraiah about the whole thing, so I'll let others state their positions.

          Here's the thing: Edgar was a fairly good 3rd baseman! He must not have liked playing the position, and this is a different matter, and it would be enough to keep him out of the Hall on that alone. However, I still love the guy as a player because I thought he was a good 3rd baseman, and that he was a team player who went along with the assignment for the good of the team. He must have changed his mind, as people are prone to do over time.

          I love Edgar because he is as professional as anyone can be at baseball. He's as professional as Tony Gwynn, Ripken or any player in the past several decades you could name. Its a shame that he must now think of himself as one dimensional.
          Catfish Hunter, RIP. Mark Fidrych, RIP. Skip Caray, RIP. Tony Gwynn, #19, RIP

          A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill. (Please take note that I've recently become aware of how this quote applies to a certain US president. This is a coincidence, and the quote was first added to this signature too far back to remember when).

          Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test first and the lesson later. -- Dan Quisenberry.

          Comment


          • #6
            He became a DH when he tore up his hamstring back in the early
            90's...And he was a pretty decent 3rd baseman til the injury..As long as he is productive (which he still is) why not keep playing???? As long as the DH is still in the big leagues you shouldn't fault him for filling a role...It know different than a reliever,
            a starter going every 5 days...I know I will get some flack from this statement because the pitchers are on the field and the Dh is not...But this is how I feel....

            One day relievers and Dh's will make the hall (some day)
            "A ball bat is a wondrous weapon." - Ty Cobb

            "Luck is the great stabilizer in baseball." - Tris Speaker

            "I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball." - Pete Rose

            "You wait for a strike, then you knock the #$%^ out of it." - Stan Musial

            "GO M'S"

            Comment


            • #7
              (1) It seems quite clear from a number of the previous posts that whether or not you think Edgar Martinez should be elected to the Hall of Fame rests largely on one's personal feelings about the designated hitter rule.

              To wit: the designated hitter rule is a part of the game - like it or not - and has been for thirty years now. Edgar Martinez has filled that role throughout his career. It is not the designated hitter's fault that the designated hitter rule exists. You can't fault Martinez for playing that position. He gets no demerits for it.

              (2) Martinez is the best designated hitter in the history of the game. After thirty years and some fairly good hitters filling those roles, Martinez is heads above the rest at that "position." Being the best at any position is worthy of serious consideration for enshrinement. There is a designated hitter. Someone had to fill that role. Martinez did it and has excelled at it for over a decade!

              (3) Martinez must be judged solely on his offensive contributions (as he really has no career defensive contributions to speak of.) You don't subtract from Martinez's career value because he has no fielding stats, but rather you would add value to the careers of other hitters for whatever fielding accomplishments boosted their overall value. Penalizing Martinez is the wrong way to compare the relative worth of these players. You should, instead, reward others for positive fielding contributions. In this way Martinez can be fairly and accurately measured against other players.

              (4) Martinez has consistently been one of the 5 best hitters in the game for a decade. That, in itself, is worthy of serious consideration. Not many players outside the Hall of Fame can make such a claim.

              (5) Martinez's career numbers are not short as many people think. He had 7,520 career plate appearances coming into 2003. Fifty percent of the players in the Hall of Fame had fewer career plate appearances than Martinez. And that percentage is rising as Martinez sees playing time this summer.

              (6) Martinez had 620 Runs Created Above Average thru 2002 - the 34th highest total in history! That doesn't tell me that he needs 3,000 hits or any other "magic number" that voters will recognize. That tells me this: there is no one who has ever retired with that many RCAA who has not been elected to the Hall of Fame.

              Martinez has, in my opinion, done enough to warrant election to the Hall - or, at the very least, to be a very strong candidate. He shouldn't be so easily dismissed just because some people don't like the DH-rule. I certainly hope the voters don't treat him similarly.
              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

              Comment


              • #8
                Another thing: Edgar Martinez's RC/27 of 8.62 is the 47th in history (minimum 2,000 plate appearances). Place it in the context of his era, however, and you'll find Martinez's adjusted RC/27 to be the 41st best total in history.

                However, there's a huge difference between someone with 2,000 plate appearances and the 7,520 that Martinez has put in.

                Among players with at least as any attempts as Martinez, you're looking at Edgar rating 23rd all-time. Martinez's RC/27 of 8.62 came in an environment of 5.00 RC/27 which means that Martinez's offensive contributions were a whopping seventy-two percent higher than average!

                The only players with that much playing time and more valuable offensive contributions are: Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds, Mickey Mantle, Lou Gehrig, Rogers Hornsby, Jimmie Foxx, Dan Brouthers, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Tris Speaker, Billy Hamilton, Honus Wagner, Ed Delahanty, Willie Mays, Joe DiMaggio, Frank Robinson, Hank Aaron, Nap Lajoie, Mark McGwire and Jeff Bagwell.

                That's a pretty exclusive list of the greatest hitters ever.

                That means Martinez's career offensive contributions have exceeded the value of those of Mike Schmidt, Duke Snider, Willie McCovey, Joe Morgan, Sammy Sosa or Pete Rose.

                It seems to me the burden of proof in this argument rests with those who would keep Martinez out of the Hall of Fame. So far, I've seen no evidence save the fact that the designated hitter rule reduces a player to playing only "half the game."
                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                Comment


                • #9
                  There is somebody out there that agrees with me...thanks for you insight Chancellor...
                  "A ball bat is a wondrous weapon." - Ty Cobb

                  "Luck is the great stabilizer in baseball." - Tris Speaker

                  "I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball." - Pete Rose

                  "You wait for a strike, then you knock the #$%^ out of it." - Stan Musial

                  "GO M'S"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Etheridge2
                    Even a DH with 3000Hits and 5000 HR wouldn't be a Hall of Famer IMO as when you don't play the field you miss half the game..
                    if i had 5000hr i want to e in the hall, dh or not

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Quoted, from Etheridge2: Even a DH with 3000Hits and 5000 HR ....

                      3000 hits and 5000 Homers? Now THERE'S Enron-style bookkeeping!

                      That's okay. We know what you meant.

                      Since he's now 39 and will still have 900 hits to go by the end of the year in order to get to 3000 hits, I expect his case to be among the most contentious in baseball history.
                      Catfish Hunter, RIP. Mark Fidrych, RIP. Skip Caray, RIP. Tony Gwynn, #19, RIP

                      A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill. (Please take note that I've recently become aware of how this quote applies to a certain US president. This is a coincidence, and the quote was first added to this signature too far back to remember when).

                      Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test first and the lesson later. -- Dan Quisenberry.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by abolishthedh
                        Since he's now 39 and will still have 900 hits to go by the end of the year in order to get to 3000 hits, I expect his case to be among the most contentious in baseball history.
                        It's a pretty fair guess that he won't reach 3,000 career hits (not that he has to.)

                        He presently has 2,031 hits (thru 6/8/03). There are 205 players in history with more. 95 of the 191 players in the Hall of Fame have fewer career hits than Martinez does at this point. Some of those Hall of Famers with fewer hits include Johnny Mize, Earl Averill, Sam Thompson, Bill Dickey, Jimmy Collins, Earle Combs and Frank Baker.

                        Martinez has more career hits than popular candidates such as Gil Hodges, George Foster, Minnie Minoso, Dick Allen, Tony Oliva, Curt Flood or Vern Stephens.

                        Martinez has more career hits than active (or recently retired) stars like Jose Canseco, Sammy Sosa, Bernie Williams and John Olerud, whose names are occassionally tossed around as candidates for the Hall.

                        So clearly, having a career hits total near 3,000 - while certainly beneficial - is not a requirement for election. It would appear that election is based more on the quality of his hits, rather than just their quantity.
                        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Chancellor


                          He presently has 2,031 hits (thru 6/8/03). There are 205 players in history with more. 95 of the 191 players in the Hall of Fame have fewer career hits than Martinez does at this point.

                          .
                          How many of those 95 were everyday players after WWII? That looks like a very manipulative stat to me.
                          Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                          Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
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                          Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Though I agree with you Chancellor, that Edgar should be in the HOF, some of your arguments are sorta weak. You say 95 players have less hits then him? Most are pitchers. Am I not right? Do you expect pitchers to have that many hits since they play every 5th day or so? Or AL pictchers from the '70's plus with near no hits.

                            Oh, and those 7520 plate apperaces, 50% lower, aren't most of them pitchers too?.


                            SO I do agree with you on most arguments and the general fact that Edgar is a HOFer, some of your arguments re quite weak as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Great positon players are measured by the five tools .........

                              hit for average
                              hit for power
                              run
                              field
                              throw

                              To be HOF, you should be among the best at 4 of these tools. I'd be willing to sacrifice one.

                              The only thing Ozzie couldn't do is hit for power. You can argue hit for average, also. But his last 12 years were FAR better than his early days.

                              Harmon Killebrew - couldn't run, not a good fielder, low BA, one of his own team's scouts once said, "He throws like a girl."

                              He did improve, but he's a HR hitter. Nothing more.

                              Mays, like Bonds, could do it all. And if you have to sacrifice a tool, you'd better be EXCELLENT at the rest.

                              How can a guy who almost NEVER wears a fielder's glove get in the hall?
                              Living with the Curse of Keith Hernandez since 1982

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