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Edgar Martinez in the Hall??

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  • #16
    Fielding is part of the game. It is essential to winning.

    How many broadcasters emphasise the importantance of the pitcher being able to FIELD his position well? And why do they do it so often?

    I cannot condone a player getting HOF consideration who either CAN'T or WON'T take the field!

    DH IS NOT A POSITION! It is a full-time PH, and it should be stricken from the rules.
    Living with the Curse of Keith Hernandez since 1982

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    • #17
      Originally posted by CardFanNV

      DH IS NOT A POSITION! It is a full-time PH, and it should be stricken from the rules.
      But it's not. You can ignore the big elephant standing in the hallway, but it's still there. Not acknowledging it doesn't change the fact it's still there. So it has to be treated as such, abhorent as you find the rule or not.

      As a full-time hitter, Martinez should have better overall numbers. That's why I wouldn't put him in. Not because he is listed as a non-fielding position that seems to get some people's lather up so much. Why? Because pitchers don't strike out or bunt as much? Because it cuts down on double switches? I'm not a big DH proponent but I find the anti-DH argument way too much ado about nothing.

      Should a player be penalized for dh'ing toward the end of their career, after they have done more than enough to merit consideration, (Brett, Murray, Yaz)? If a player can still hit well enough, then use that player.

      The five tools is a good judge, though. If a player can't show most of those tools for a good portion of their career, they shouldn't make it. I'm not against the DH, but I don't think they show enough overall skills.
      Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
      Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
      Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
      Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
      Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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      • #18
        The DH SUCKS

        I can and will hold a bias towards players who are essentially a DH a player who doesn't take the field not only doesn't get any consideration for his glovework but gets negative points towards his career. No player in baseball disgusts me more then Edgar for the simple reason that during the players strike when they were talking about eliminating the DH he stated he would retire if they did so..The man doesn't evben want to play the field..plain and simple he isn't a baseball player.. a pitcher taking the mound every 5 days is different because the position is physically demanding to the point where you cvan not play everyday. A DH in order to even mnerit consideration needs numbers that blkow the mind 4000 hits ore 700hr it just The DH is basebgall's biggest mistake over the last 40 years and it ruins the game IMO. I don't care that it isn't mARTINEZ'S FAULT THAT there is a DH he could play the field if he wanted to and if he can't then let him reetire he has also not been among the best 5 hitters in the game for the last decade..

        the best hitters over the last decade in my oppinion have been
        AROD
        Bonds
        Sosa
        Alomar
        Jeter
        Bagwell
        Manny Ramirez
        Nomar
        Piazza
        Palmiero

        And all these guys have played the field and some have even won Gold Gloves I would take ANYH of them over Edgar over the last decade...

        If Martinez gets in to nthe hall it would be a BIG mistake
        GO CARDINALS!!!!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Steffo
          You say 95 players have less hits then him? Most are pitchers. Am I not right?....Oh, and those 7520 plate apperaces, 50% lower, aren't most of them pitchers too?.
          You are, of course, quite right. Thank you for pointing that out.


          There are 133 non-pitchers in the Hall of Fame.
          37 of them have fewer hits than Edgar Martinez.
          That's still 28% (and rising as he continues to play).

          Martinez has more hits than 28% of the non-pitchers in the Hall of Fame. It's still a sizeable group.

          The point was simply that a player doesn't necessarily need a high hit total to gain election. (Or, conversely, that a high hit total doesn't necessarily guarantee election either.)
          "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
          "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
          "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
          "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by CardFanNV
            Great positon players are measured by the five tools .........

            hit for average
            hit for power
            run
            field
            throw

            To be HOF, you should be among the best at 4 of these tools. I'd be willing to sacrifice one.

            The only thing Ozzie couldn't do is hit for power. You can argue hit for average, also. But his last 12 years were FAR better than his early days.

            Harmon Killebrew - couldn't run, not a good fielder, low BA, one of his own team's scouts once said, "He throws like a girl."

            He did improve, but he's a HR hitter. Nothing more.

            Mays, like Bonds, could do it all. And if you have to sacrifice a tool, you'd better be EXCELLENT at the rest.

            How can a guy who almost NEVER wears a fielder's glove get in the hall?
            Horsefeathers!

            First off, when do you ever hear of "great position players" being compared to the Hall of Fame? Never! It's "great players!" You're inserting the "position" into that phrase in order to single out Martinez.

            Secondly, the idea that Hall of Fame qualification is somehow based on the well-roundedness of a player's greatness defies both the trends of the past and the current voting patterns of those who decide who gets elected.

            If being superb at several things instead of truly great at one or two is enough, then why isn't Dwight Evans or Bobby Grich in the Hall? Where's Minnie Minoso or Ron Santo? Why couldn't Ryne Sandberg get half the votes last winter?

            No. The Hall of Fame voters focus more on exactly the opposite - they tend to focus on people who do one thing really, really well. Look at the bias towards power hitters in the Hall. There are very few power hitters who couldn't do anything else who have been elected (Kingman is one example.)

            Say what you want about Ozzie Smith, but he was never a good hitter. Sure he improved, from being a bush league hitter to an adequate major league hitter, but he was never a good major league hitter. His defense got him into the Hall and nothing else. In fact, if his glove hadn't been considered the best ever, if it had merely been the best of his generation, say, he'd have had a lot more difficult time convincing the voters he belonged.

            I don't understand why you mentioned Killebrew because it completely contradicts what you said at the beginning of your post - that great position players are measured by how many of the "tools" they excel at. Killebrew gained election to the Hall (as have numerous others) through excelling at only one thing.

            Edgar Martinez has only had to excel at one thing - getting on base and driving in runs - and he's done a marvelous job of that. He shouldn't be judged on the standards applied to players who play defense as well in the same vein that you can't judge a relief pitcher by the same standards you apply to a starter; it's simply a different (not a lesser) role.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

            Comment


            • #21
              How many of the 28% have comparable career lengths as Martinez? And how many of them came from offensive-eras like Martinez?
              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

              Comment


              • #22
                Amen Chancellor!!!
                "A ball bat is a wondrous weapon." - Ty Cobb

                "Luck is the great stabilizer in baseball." - Tris Speaker

                "I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball." - Pete Rose

                "You wait for a strike, then you knock the #$%^ out of it." - Stan Musial

                "GO M'S"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by CardFanNV
                  Fielding is part of the game. It is essential to winning.
                  It is less essential to winning than hitting is. Far less. There are tens of thousands of people across the United States who could strap on a glove and play a major league caliber field. There are only hundreds who could pick up a bat and hit at a big league level. The value of an above average fielder is far less than the value of an above average hitter. Furthermore, the value of good fielding varies from one position to another. A good fielding shortstop is worth more than a good fielding first baseman. DH is a position wherein no fielding is required. It is a role, the same as any other on the team.

                  To fight against that reality is to piss in a wind that's blowing in your face.

                  How many broadcasters emphasise the importantance of the pitcher being able to FIELD his position well? And why do they do it so often?
                  Oh...well, if a broadcaster mentions it, gee...it must be integral to winning the game. Broadcasters talk about things they hope the audience finds interesting. They are entertainers and rarely know more than a knowledgabale fan. A pitcher's fielding is very minimal in the scheme of his overall value. Sandy Koufax was a poor fielder. No one ever mentions it. Why not? Because it's not that important.

                  I'll take a lineup full of Edgar Martinez's and put them in the field over a lineup full of Ozzie Smith's any day of the week and I'll beat your butt black and blue 9 times out of 10.

                  I cannot condone a player getting HOF consideration who either CAN'T or WON'T take the field!

                  DH IS NOT A POSITION! It is a full-time PH, and it should be stricken from the rules.
                  Good for you. Why don't you go take your little placquard and go down to the park and protest, huh? Or have you attended an AL game in the last 30 years?

                  If you want to ignore reality, that's certainly up to you. Just know, "the Matrix has you."
                  "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                  "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                  "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                  "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The DH SUCKS

                    Originally posted by Etheridge2
                    ...The DH is basebgall's biggest mistake over the last 40 years and it ruins the game IMO....
                    Bud Selig must drool over fans like you.

                    1. You think the DH is baseball's biggest mistake over the last 40 years; and

                    2. You think the game is ruined, but you're still a fan.


                    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Captain Cold Nose...

                      My argument is two-fold. Edgar Martinez has done enough to warrant consideration for the Hall of Fame. And it is patently ridiculous to dismiss the candidacy of Martinez (or any other career DH) because of the designated hitter rule. My vitriol is primarily aimed at the latter.

                      If you haven't already, I suggest you read my earlier posts in this thread regarding Martinez's runs created and RC/27 totals and where they rate in the history of the game.

                      Martinez has 281 win shares going into this season, which places him in solid territory as a Hall of Fame candidate. (Especially considering that he has no fielding win shares to help boost that total, as most players would.)

                      Martinez's .952 OPS is the 13th highest total in history (minimum 7,500 plate appearances.) Calculating his adjusted OPS yields similar results. His OPS+ of 126 is still solidly among the best ever (32nd all-time.) Martinez's career OPS is 26 percent better than league average.

                      Here, by the way, are the top 10 RCAA totals for the last 10 years (1993-2002):

                      938 Barry Bonds
                      583 Jeff Bagwell
                      545 Frank Thomas
                      506 Edgar Martinez
                      485 Jim Thome
                      478 Mark McGwire
                      465 Manny Ramirez
                      453 Gary Sheffield
                      428 Mike Piazza
                      421 Rafael Palmeiro

                      Martinez has been one of the best hitters in baseball for the last decade. Etheridge2's opinion doesn't really have any bearing on that fact.

                      Has Martinez been good enough for long enough? Perhaps not quite yet. However, he certainly has earned a good look by the voters and I hope he isn't treated as poorly (for committing the crime of being a DH) by the BBWAA as he has been here.
                      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        When was the last time the worst-fielding team made the playoffs? Even in their expanded state?

                        Texas can hit the covers off the ball. They are in LAST place, if memory serves.
                        Living with the Curse of Keith Hernandez since 1982

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by CardFanNV
                          When was the last time the worst-fielding team made the playoffs? Even in their expanded state?

                          Texas can hit the covers off the ball. They are in LAST place, if memory serves.
                          When was the last time that the worst hitting team made the play-offs? What about tenth worse? Fifteenth worse? 20th worse? That's already getting into top ten and you can't name too many. I know we can name an awful fielding team that mad eth play-offs, but not an awful hitting team. Or is that too much to handle?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Steffo
                            When was the last time that the worst hitting team made the play-offs? What about tenth worse? Fifteenth worse? 20th worse? That's already getting into top ten and you can't name too many. I know we can name an awful fielding team that mad eth play-offs, but not an awful hitting team. Or is that too much to handle?

                            Of course, you need to hit a little. You also need to FIELD a little. And pitch a little. That's the Rangers problem.

                            You're totally blowing off one side of the equation because you're trying to justify a corrupt notion.

                            Keep the DH, fine. But allowing a player who only plays HALF the game to be considered for the HOF is nuts.

                            And the other great Iron Glovers on yore should be reconsidered as well. But at least, they went out there.
                            Living with the Curse of Keith Hernandez since 1982

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CardFanNV
                              Keep the DH, fine. But allowing a player who only plays HALF the game to be considered for the HOF is nuts.
                              And see...my point is exactly the converse of this statement.

                              I am not a fan of the DH rule. But it's here and it's "nuts" to not consider a DH for the Hall of Fame just because we don't like the rule!

                              Martinez simply isn't required to play the field and therefore he isn't skimping out on "half the game." For him, or any other DH, hitting is the whole game; whether we like it or not.
                              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                We're losing track of Edgar in our DH discussion.

                                For the moment, let's pretend that Edgar is a lead-footed, weak-armed LF; i.e., about as close as one can come to no value in fielding.

                                He's still not a slam dunk.

                                His percentage stats are great; his counting stats are a little low.

                                I wouldn't be appalled if Edgar made the HOF -- he's a legitimately great player -- but I think he's got a tough argument.

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