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Edgar Martinez in the Hall??

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  • #31
    Let me say this .................................

    As far as being a pure hitter, Edgar is arguably one of the 10 best righthanders in the post WW II era. Not just power, but high average and lots of doubles.

    But he doesn't take the field. I'd feel much differently then.
    Living with the Curse of Keith Hernandez since 1982

    Comment


    • #32
      The other side of the coin

      One thing that gets me about the whole "should a DH be inducted into the Hall" debate is how no one -- on either side -- looks at the other half of the equation for reference. Because when a DH is used, that means two things:

      1. A player is batting who doesn't field
      2. A pitcher (or several) is pitching who doesn't hit

      Catch that second part? Obviously, a pitcher in the AL from 1973 on is not going to have too many at bats -- and the at bats they have are going to be bona fide hideous. (Anyone remember Dave Stieb in the '81 All-Star Game? And Dave was a converted outfielder.) So if you're going to say that a career designated hitter should not be in the Hall because he was not involved in every part of the game, as a matter of logic you would also have to say that a post-'73 career AL pitcher should not be in the Hall, for the same reason -- he wasn't involved in every part of the game!

      Therefore, if you dismiss Edgar Martinez or Harold Baines from HOF discussion, not on the basis of their accomplishments, but simply because they did most of them without wearing a glove ... then for your stance to be consistent, you also have to dismiss Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina and possibly Randy Johnson, because they achieved most of their accomplishments without picking up a bat.

      And I don't think anyone in this forum will argue that fielding is more important than hitting (anyone that ignorant probably can't find the on/off button on a PC). So the AL pitchers are missing a bigger part of the game than the AL DHs.

      ==============================================

      Okay, on to the topic at hand: Edgar for the Hall? It's a close one -- his career numbers are stunted by not making it as a starter until he was 27. He led the AL in OBP three times; batting and doubles twice; and runs and RBIs once each. His career totals are comparable with Chuck Klein and Earl Averill (who are in the Hall) as well as Don Mattingly, Fred Lynn and Indian Bob Johnson (who aren't). He was a fair 3B (probably better than Chipper Jones), and probably could have continued there were it not for that hammy injury; his lack of time spent fielding is a factor (just not THE factor). As far as I know, he's a good character guy.

      Two more real good seasons, and he probably should be in. Right now, he's on the border.
      the ubiquitous Bly11

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: The other side of the coin

        Originally posted by bly11
        One thing that gets me about the whole "should a DH be inducted into the Hall" debate is how no one -- on either side -- looks at the other half of the equation for reference. Because when a DH is used, that means two things:

        1. A player is batting who doesn't field
        2. A pitcher (or several) is pitching who doesn't hit

        Catch that second part? Obviously, a pitcher in the AL from 1973 on is not going to have too many at bats -- and the at bats they have are going to be bona fide hideous. (Anyone remember Dave Stieb in the '81 All-Star Game? And Dave was a converted outfielder.) So if you're going to say that a career designated hitter should not be in the Hall because he was not involved in every part of the game, as a matter of logic you would also have to say that a post-'73 career AL pitcher should not be in the Hall, for the same reason -- he wasn't involved in every part of the game!

        Therefore, if you dismiss Edgar Martinez or Harold Baines from HOF discussion, not on the basis of their accomplishments, but simply because they did most of them without wearing a glove ... then for your stance to be consistent, you also have to dismiss Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina and possibly Randy Johnson, because they achieved most of their accomplishments without picking up a bat.

        And I don't think anyone in this forum will argue that fielding is more important than hitting (anyone that ignorant probably can't find the on/off button on a PC). So the AL pitchers are missing a bigger part of the game than the AL DHs.

        The reason that logic is faulty is because NEVER EVER has a pitcher been elected to the Hall based on his offensive production it isn't even a factor in the minds of voters... A pitchers hitting accomplishments aren't even a part of the equation...otherwise Wes ferrell might have made it...pitchers are elected for what they do on the mound period but other players are elected based on their bat and glove adn not fielding to me is a HUGE negative. Edgar's offensive averages aside from average are OK but not great he doesn't field and doesn't want to and that's a bigger knock against him...I would consider it a disgrace if he was ever elected
        GO CARDINALS!!!!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by abolishthedh
          I expect his case to be among the most contentious in baseball history.
          How did you guess?
          http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Re: The other side of the coin

            Originally posted by Etheridge2
            The reason that logic is faulty is because NEVER EVER has a pitcher been elected to the Hall based on his offensive production it isn't even a factor in the minds of voters... A pitchers hitting accomplishments aren't even a part of the equation...otherwise Wes ferrell might have made it...pitchers are elected for what they do on the mound period but other players are elected based on their bat and glove adn not fielding to me is a HUGE negative. Edgar's offensive averages aside from average are OK but not great he doesn't field and doesn't want to and that's a bigger knock against him...I would consider it a disgrace if he was ever elected

            Except for Babe Ruth ................ but that's a unique story ..........
            Living with the Curse of Keith Hernandez since 1982

            Comment


            • #36
              Chancellor has presented some very well-reasoned arguments in support of Edgar Martinez. The majority of posters who oppose Martinez seem rely solely on the fact that's he a DH. That's a very weak argument which is made even more absurd by claims that he'd have to reach arbitrary totals such as 4000 hits or 700 HRs.

              The reality is that the DH is a part of baseball and has been for many years. You can hold any opinion you wish on the subject, but it's still necessary to accept that it's not going away. Martinez shouldn't be punished for being a DH any more than modern pitchers should be punished for not having large numbers of complete games. There are certainly reasons why Martinez should not be elected to the Hall of Fame, but being a DH isn't one of them.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by carrp
                There are certainly reasons why Martinez should not be elected to the Hall of Fame, but being a DH isn't one of them.

                Yes it is. Sorry. NO PLAYER has ever been elected that has been predominantly a DH.

                And hopefully, no one ever will.
                Living with the Curse of Keith Hernandez since 1982

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by CardFanNV:
                  "Yes it is. Sorry. NO PLAYER has ever been elected that has been predominantly a DH.

                  And hopefully, no one ever will."


                  i agree that being a DH is a factor that needs to be considered in the same way that i believe that one does not compare LF with SS candidates with the same criteria, necessarily.

                  equally, i am not a huge fan of the DH - though i'm rather more ambivalent than many at the fever (it is what it is)...

                  but what i find striking about your last comment is that you truly do not care even if some outlandish and seemingly unattainable milestones are reached by a player who has predominantly been a DH - e.g. 700HR, 4000hits or 1000HR, 7000hits...you just do not want to see a DH -EVER- in the hall.

                  I think this is why reasoned argument (in this thread, outlined well by Chancellor, imo) is pointless - to argue against an opinion that says a player with a 1000HR should not make the hall is an exercise in futility at best...

                  ...but still, it is fun and this topic will heat-up before it abates...




                  razors.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    No kidding ................ I think we need another bat corker to spice things up in here ................ getting a little slow
                    Living with the Curse of Keith Hernandez since 1982

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Those of you who do not think Edgar has posted HOF Numbers offensively, think about this:

                      Arky Vaughan is an HOF-er. His career numbers:

                      2,103 hits
                      356 2B
                      128 3B
                      96 HR
                      1,173 Runs
                      926 RBI
                      .318 BA
                      .406 OBP
                      .453 SLG


                      Edgar Martinez's Career numbers (up to 6/17/03):

                      2,058 hits
                      477 2B
                      15 3B
                      292 HR
                      1,144 Runs
                      1164 RBI
                      .316 BA
                      .424 OBP
                      .528 SLG

                      No one here can tell me he's going be kept out of Cooperstown because he didn't hit enough triples!!!

                      As for all of you who think that because DH's only focus on one aspect of the game, they should be kept out of the HOF, well think about this. Should Clemens be kept out of the Hall because he only pitches? I think not.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tearforamariner
                        Those of you who do not think Edgar has posted HOF Numbers offensively, think about this:

                        Arky Vaughan is an HOF-er. His career numbers:

                        2,103 hits
                        356 2B
                        128 3B
                        96 HR
                        1,173 Runs
                        926 RBI
                        .318 BA
                        .406 OBP
                        .453 SLG


                        Edgar Martinez's Career numbers (up to 6/17/03):

                        2,058 hits
                        477 2B
                        15 3B
                        292 HR
                        1,144 Runs
                        1164 RBI
                        .316 BA
                        .424 OBP
                        .528 SLG

                        No one here can tell me he's going be kept out of Cooperstown because he didn't hit enough triples!!!

                        As for all of you who think that because DH's only focus on one aspect of the game, they should be kept out of the HOF, well think about this. Should Clemens be kept out of the Hall because he only pitches? I think not.

                        Clemens also FIELDS his position, which requires covering bases, backing up throws, and fielding bunts and grounders. He also BATS, when required by interleague rules and post-season requirements.

                        Edgar just bats and runs bases.

                        NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
                        Living with the Curse of Keith Hernandez since 1982

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by CardFanNV
                          Clemens also FIELDS his position, which requires covering bases, backing up throws, and fielding bunts and grounders. He also BATS, when required by interleague rules and post-season requirements.

                          Edgar just bats and runs bases.

                          NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
                          Edgar has a .952 career fielding percentage.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            And he has a .998 fielding injury percentage if he ever takes the field.

                            Seriously though the .952 fielding percentage is nothing to brag about or really mention if you are trying to use as a point in favor of Edgar. From 1987 (when Edgar Started) to 2002 there have been 48 players who manned third base for at least 500 games. Edgar ranks 36th. If we were to look from 1980 to 2002 he drops to 54th of 69 players.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Chancellor you say that Ozzie Smith was never a good hitter, well I am going to disagree with you on that.

                              For instance his lifetime batting average is league average once we factor in ballpark. His OBP is above average, and only his slugging is below average. Ozzie had at least 4 if not more (depending on how you weight OBP) seasons in which Ozzie was above average (good) with the bat. I personally would say he had at least 8 good seasons with the bat.

                              To me 8 good seasons with the bat, 16 really great seasons with the glove, 2 or 3 very good seasons on the basepath, and all around great ambassador for baseball makes him hall worthy.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by cubbieinexile
                                Chancellor you say that Ozzie Smith was never a good hitter, well I am going to disagree with you on that.

                                For instance his lifetime batting average is league average once we factor in ballpark. His OBP is above average, and only his slugging is below average. Ozzie had at least 4 if not more (depending on how you weight OBP) seasons in which Ozzie was above average (good) with the bat. I personally would say he had at least 8 good seasons with the bat.

                                To me 8 good seasons with the bat, 16 really great seasons with the glove, 2 or 3 very good seasons on the basepath, and all around great ambassador for baseball makes him hall worthy.

                                Ozzie MADE himself into a decent hitter. Had nearly 2,500 hits.

                                Edgar has essentially REFUSED to take the field since I can remember.

                                Bet he's been on the trading block before. No NL team would touch him, good a hitter as he is.
                                Living with the Curse of Keith Hernandez since 1982

                                Comment

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