Edgar Martinez in the Hall??

[Cougar]

Is it really a refusal? I think it's more of a mutual thing between him and the M's -- everyone pretty much agrees it's a bad idea.

For a long time he wasn't entirely unwilling, but his hammys have gotten so bad he's been basically physically unable to play the field for some time.

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by Cougar
Is it really a refusal? I think it's more of a mutual thing between him and the M's -- everyone pretty much agrees it's a bad idea.

For a long time he wasn't entirely unwilling, but his hammys have gotten so bad he's been basically physically unable to play the field for some time.

So, what you're saying is, that if he had played in the era BEFORE the DH existed, his bad hammys would have prevented him from playing, because he couldn't take the field, and he wouldn't have had all these hits that make him HOF worthy.

Thank you for defending my arguement.

[Cougar]

Yes, that's all true.

But...the DH rule exists, and he did get all those hits.

I'm pretty much undecided on Edgar's HOF candidacy -- my first instinct is that his counting stats aren't big enough, but I don't want to diminish how unworldly good his percentage stats are.

The guy might just be the best all around hitter (measured by OPS+) of his generation. (Frank Thomas is about 5 years younger.) That's something.

But yeah, absent the DH, he might not even have a 10 year career, or at best he might have been merely the best pinch hitter ever.

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by Cougar
Yes, that's all true.

But...the DH rule exists, and he did get all those hits.

I'm pretty much undecided on Edgar's HOF candidacy -- my first instinct is that his counting stats aren't big enough, but I don't want to diminish how unworldly good his percentage stats are.

The guy might just be the best all around hitter (measured by OPS+) of his generation. (Frank Thomas is about 5 years younger.) That's something.

But yeah, absent the DH, he might not even have a 10 year career, or at best he might have been merely the best pinch hitter ever.

For years, he was the best pure right-handed hitter in baseball. No arguement there.

But he'd have been gone long ago, if he were FORCED to play the field. Unless he could have sucked it out at 1B.

But he didn't. The rule is a farce. No player should be admitted to the HOF that had 20% of their plate appearances as a DH. Period.

Hmmmmmmm ................... wonder how Yaz matches up on that percentage? I'll have to check.

Actually, until Edgar came along, DH was usually manned either by an aging power hitter or a horrible defensive player. Neither of which would have been a "star".

[Cougar]

20% is way, way too extreme. Your point about Yaz illustrates that. And Molitor. And Frank Thomas. And Reggie Jackson.

I think when you get above, say, 50% of your AB as a DH -- I'm not inclined to say never, but such a player really needs something like 3000 hits or a .330 average or 600 HR or something.

Edgar's awfully close, but assuming he's not going to play five more years, I think he's a little short.

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by Cougar
20% is way, way too extreme. Your point about Yaz illustrates that. And Molitor. And Frank Thomas. And Reggie Jackson.

I think when you get above, say, 50% of your AB as a DH -- I'm not inclined to say never, but such a player really needs something like 3000 hits or a .330 average or 600 HR or something.

Edgar's awfully close, but assuming he's not going to play five more years, I think he's a little short.

No it isn't. That's 1/5 of your playing time. If your career is 2,000 games, that 400 games you spent as a DH. The rules essentially prevent you from taking the field after you've been the DH, because the PITCHER would have to bat in your spot.

You spent over 2 1/2 seasons PADDING your "counting" stats as a full-time PH, and you expect to get into the hall?

Nope.

[Etheridge2]

Originally posted by Cougar
Is it really a refusal? I think it's more of a mutual thing between him and the M's -- everyone pretty much agrees it's a bad idea.

For a long time he wasn't entirely unwilling, but his hammys have gotten so bad he's been basically physically unable to play the field for some time.

yes it is Edgar has gone on record as saying if they did away with the DH he would retire he has NO DESIRE to play the field...and that is JUST SAD...i'm with NV 110% on this one Edgar is in my book 100% NOT A HALL OF FAMER and short of accumulating eye popping numbers will never be...

he would need a .350+ career average 4000hits 600HR 2000RBI 2000Runs just for me to seriously consider him the typical benchmarks aren't good enough for a guy who doesn't take the field....3000 hits isn't good enough if all you are doing is hitting you should be better then that...

As for pitchers it doesn't matter that they don't hit because very few have ever really contributed with the bat anyway...

Though i would rather see Jose Lima stepping to the plate after plunking a guy then Ken Harvey..

[Captain Cold Nose]

I'm not as adamant about the dh as CardFan is (you must dream of the double switch) but I have to concur with Etheridge. His counting stats need to be far better.

[Cougar]

Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
I'm not as adamant about the dh as CardFan is (you must dream of the double switch) but I have to concur with Etheridge. His counting stats need to be far better.

I agree; this is my position too.

[tearforamariner]

Originally posted by Cougar
I agree; this is my position too.

Are you all actually suggesting we discriminate against an entire position? Are you saying that because he only hits standards should be set higher? He plays a position, an actual position. Its in the rule books, go ahead check, its there. Edgar Martinez has put up better numbers then any other DH. He is "Mr. DH". If you don't like the DH, then fine, hate the rule. Don't hate the players. Had he stayed at 3rd base and posted these numbers, most everyone here would agree he deserves to be in the HOF.

[Cougar]

Originally posted by CardFanNV
No it isn't. That's 1/5 of your playing time. If your career is 2,000 games, that 400 games you spent as a DH. The rules essentially prevent you from taking the field after you've been the DH, because the PITCHER would have to bat in your spot.

You spent over 2 1/2 seasons PADDING your "counting" stats as a full-time PH, and you expect to get into the hall?

Nope.

Then Reggie Jackson (630 games as DH, 23%) isn't a HOF.

Then Paul Molitor (1174 games as DH, 44%) isn't a HOF.

20% is too high a standard. Take Jackson's case. He was a mediocre fielder for most of his career, but absent the DH, he would have played the field every day (maybe not at the very end of his career, but all but the last year or two). But the DH rule exists, and managers are going to use it to try to win. Often, after the starting 8, the best hitter on the bench is a corner OF/1b type. So a manager will use that sort of guy as a DH, and he'll rotate the DH slot to rest guys. So good hitters are going to accumulate DH at-bats for strategic reasons only peripherally related to their talent. It's just the nature of a game played with a DH rule.

Now, you have a guy like Edgar, who can't play the field at all, that's different.

[Cougar]

Originally posted by tearforamariner
Are you all actually suggesting we discriminate against an entire position? Are you saying that because he only hits standards should be set higher? He plays a position, an actual position. Its in the rule books, go ahead check, its there. Edgar Martinez has put up better numbers then any other DH. He is "Mr. DH". If you don't like the DH, then fine, hate the rule. Don't hate the players. Had he stayed at 3rd base and posted these numbers, most everyone here would agree he deserves to be in the HOF.

I'm not discriminating against the position; I'm just weighting it. You are right, if Edgar had put up these stats at 3b, he's a HOF. But if he did it primarily as a lousy fielding LF or 1b (in other words, something close to nil defensive value), I'd still think the counting stats were a little short.

I think a guy with virtually no defensive value needs to get a lot more than 2000 hits and 300 HR to make the HOF. There's just too many guys that have done that sort of thing.

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
I'm not as adamant about the dh as CardFan is (you must dream of the double switch) but I have to concur with Etheridge. His counting stats need to be far better.

It's not about double switching, or anything else. To be a HOF ballplayer, you should be able to excel in more than just one facet of the game. The way the rule is written, if you DH and go into the field later, your team LOSES the DH because the person you were batting for (usually the pitcher) must hit in your vacated position.

DH can only hit and run bases. Most of them are not what you would consider "fleet". That's why Pujols does it when the Cards play interleague.

So they excel at maybe 2 of the 5 "tools". Hit for average and power. Edgar has done that. But that's only two out of five. Not enough.

Killebrew could only do one of five. Hit for power.

Big Mac could only do one of five. Hit for power.

I wouldn't have voted for either.

[tearforamariner]

Originally posted by CardFanNV
It's not about double switching, or anything else. To be a HOF ballplayer, you should be able to excel in more than just one facet of the game. The way the rule is written, if you DH and go into the field later, your team LOSES the DH because the person you were batting for (usually the pitcher) must hit in your vacated position.

DH can only hit and run bases. Most of them are not what you would consider "fleet". That's why Pujols does it when the Cards play interleague.

So they excel at maybe 2 of the 5 "tools". Hit for average and power. Edgar has done that. But that's only two out of five. Not enough.

Killebrew could only do one of five. Hit for power.

Big Mac could only do one of five. Hit for power.

I wouldn't have voted for either.

Killebrew's in the Hall and Big Mac's on his way to being there. Are you saying that even though YOU don't think Edgar should be in the HOF, he will?

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by Cougar
Then Reggie Jackson (630 games as DH, 23%) isn't a HOF.

Then Paul Molitor (1174 games as DH, 44%) isn't a HOF.

20% is too high a standard. Take Jackson's case. He was a mediocre fielder for most of his career, but absent the DH, he would have played the field every day (maybe not at the very end of his career, but all but the last year or two). But the DH rule exists, and managers are going to use it to try to win. Often, after the starting 8, the best hitter on the bench is a corner OF/1b type. So a manager will use that sort of guy as a DH, and he'll rotate the DH slot to rest guys. So good hitters are going to accumulate DH at-bats for strategic reasons only peripherally related to their talent. It's just the nature of a game played with a DH rule.

Now, you have a guy like Edgar, who can't play the field at all, that's different.

Exactly ................................... Molitor played too many games at DH. Reggie was lacking at other parts of his game. Reggie would merit special consideration for his WS exploits, along with guys like Larsen. A "Special Achievments Wing", if you will.

Here's a good example. Yaz was not a full-time DH until his final 2 seasons. He ALREADY had 3,000 hits, 600 doubles and 400 HR by then. He would have qualified without needing "padded stats".

Murray DH'd for 58 games at the ripe old age of 32 in his last year with the O's. Whether or not this was HIS idea is debatable, because he went to the NL for 5 seasons. Apparently, he could still play.

Here's the list of those with 500 HR and 3,000 hits

Aaron
Mays
Murray

Which name doesn't seem to hit?

Aaron and Mays obliterated 500 HR. And they played the field for the vast majority of their careers. Mays was NEVER a DH.

Murray played nearly 500 games at the "position".