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Edgar Martinez in the Hall??

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  • Chadwick
    replied
    Originally posted by J W View Post
    But I'll say this: when the time comes, if the time comes, Edgar will be the first full-time DH elected into the Hall.
    It has and he is. And I'm damn happy for him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Posada's defense needed to improve to merely bleh before he could seize the full-time gig.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jar of Flies
    replied
    Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

    That's a good one...I forgot Joe Girardi kept him back somewhat.
    Joe Torre

    Leave a comment:


  • Toledo Inquisition
    replied
    Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
    Good discussion here on late bloomers:

    As a blunt tool, HOFers through age 26 with the lowest Baseball-Reference WAR:

    http://thebaseballgauge.com/history....e=1&sort=tot_a

    Removing some of the generally non supported HOFers:
    1. Dazzy Vance - 0.1
    2. Phil Niekro - 0.2
    3. Edgar Martinez - 0.7
    4. Sam Rice - 1.3
    6. Randy Johnson - 2.2
    8. Roy Campanella - 2.2 - special case
    9. Stan Coveleski - 2.3
    10. 3 Finger Brown - 2.6
    11. Bill Terry - 2.6
    12. Bob Lemon - 3.2
    13. Trevor Hoffman - 3.6
    14. Jimmy Collins - 3.7
    15. Old Hoss Radbourn - 3.9
    16. Gaylord Perry - 4.2
    19. Mariano Rivera - 5.2
    20. Rollie Fingers - 5.3
    21. Carl Hubbell - 5.5
    22. Herb Pennock - 6.0
    23. Red Faber - 6.0
    24. Luke Appling - 6.1
    25. Deacon White - 6.2

    To the electorate, do you give any MLE credit for some of these guys playing at a high level in other leagues and not getting the break to the big leagues they deserved?
    Great list, thanks!

    Other than the Negro Leagues or war service, I don't. There are plenty of guys like that who might get credit - Indian Bob Johnson (Connie Mack not wanting him because Bob's brother Roy was a drunk), Earl Averill (darn, another guy who I forgot, age 27 debut, thought he debuted at 26 - was happy enough in the PCL), Lefty Grove (age 25 debut, old Baltimore Orioles ownership issues), etc. It goes down to lesser lights, such as Dixie Walker who was mostly stuck behind the big name Yankee outfielders...he didn't become a regular until age 26 with the White Sox.

    I personally don't know where a good line to draw is...it becomes completely judgmental.


    (As a side note, whatever his faults, I've always felt bad for Dixie Walker...outliving three of your own children had to be a worse fate than anything that the rest of society accorded you.)


    Originally posted by willshad View Post

    what about Ichiro?
    I was aware of him, but was looking for more unusual cases. He's effectively the poster boy of Japanese Leaguers coming in late.

    Originally posted by redban View Post

    Jorge Posada. Turned 27 in the middle of 1998.

    That's a good one...I forgot Joe Girardi kept him back somewhat.
    Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 06-27-2019, 10:37 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
    I was reviewing Edgar's numbers. He effectively only had a half a season before age 27, becoming a regular at age 27. The only other player I know of who was a HOFer/near HOF/very good player who might deserve HOF consideration (take your choice) who didn't begin his career until age 27 is Sam Rice (who also had a half season before age 27).

    Other than special cases (Negro Leagues, Japanese League, wars/military service), are there any other greats that you're aware of who effectively didn't get a start until age 27?

    It makes Edgar's HOF run so unusual.
    what about Ichiro?

    Leave a comment:


  • Toledo Inquisition
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    A fair number of HOF or HOFish pitchers didn't hit their stride until their late 20s or early 30s. Dazzy Vance is the best example. Hoyt Wilhelm didn't get going until he was around 30; WWII was part of the delay, but not all of it, I don't think. Phil Niekro started late too, speaking of knuckleballers. Didn't Randy Johnson not have his first great season until he was close to 30? I'm doing this all off memory right now, so apologies if I've gotten some things wrong.

    I'm a Lefty O'Doul fan; he was trying to make it as a pitcher for about a decade before he switched to hitting. Of course he didn't last too long once he did, (though long enough to win two batting titles and post the 4th highest BA of all time), but that was at least partly because he transitioned rapidly to coaching/managing and other off-field duties (leading barnstorming tours, promoting baseball on the West Coast & in Japan, etc.)
    You're correct...a decent number of pitchers haven't established themselves until their late 20's: Vance until 31, Phil Niekro until 28, Hoyt Wilhelm at age 29, Iron Man Joe McGinnity didn't debut until age 28, etc. Randy Johnson was an okay pitcher in his mid-20's and threw a lot of innings, but didn't get good until later. Although in this day and age, I suspect they'll be fewer numbers of pitchers who don't debut until age 27.

    I should have said I was looking for hitters who didn't debut (other than small numbers of AB's) until age 27. Your example of Lefty is a perfect instance of a late debut. I had him in mind when I said the Japanese league.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jar of Flies
    replied
    Good discussion here on late bloomers:

    As a blunt tool, HOFers through age 26 with the lowest Baseball-Reference WAR:

    http://thebaseballgauge.com/history....e=1&sort=tot_a

    Removing some of the generally non supported HOFers:
    1. Dazzy Vance - 0.1
    2. Phil Niekro - 0.2
    3. Edgar Martinez - 0.7
    4. Sam Rice - 1.3
    6. Randy Johnson - 2.2
    8. Roy Campanella - 2.2 - special case
    9. Stan Coveleski - 2.3
    10. 3 Finger Brown - 2.6
    11. Bill Terry - 2.6
    12. Bob Lemon - 3.2
    13. Trevor Hoffman - 3.6
    14. Jimmy Collins - 3.7
    15. Old Hoss Radbourn - 3.9
    16. Gaylord Perry - 4.2
    19. Mariano Rivera - 5.2
    20. Rollie Fingers - 5.3
    21. Carl Hubbell - 5.5
    22. Herb Pennock - 6.0
    23. Red Faber - 6.0
    24. Luke Appling - 6.1
    25. Deacon White - 6.2

    To the electorate, do you give any MLE credit for some of these guys playing at a high level in other leagues and not getting the break to the big leagues they deserved?

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
    I was reviewing Edgar's numbers. He effectively only had a half a season before age 27, becoming a regular at age 27. The only other player I know of who was a HOFer/near HOF/very good player who might deserve HOF consideration (take your choice) who didn't begin his career until age 27 is Sam Rice (who also had a half season before age 27).

    Other than special cases (Negro Leagues, Japanese League, wars/military service), are there any other greats that you're aware of who effectively didn't get a start until age 27?

    It makes Edgar's HOF run so unusual.
    A fair number of HOF or HOFish pitchers didn't hit their stride until their late 20s or early 30s. Dazzy Vance is the best example. Hoyt Wilhelm didn't get going until he was around 30; WWII was part of the delay, but not all of it, I don't think. Phil Niekro started late too, speaking of knuckleballers. Didn't Randy Johnson not have his first great season until he was close to 30? I'm doing this all off memory right now, so apologies if I've gotten some things wrong.

    I'm a Lefty O'Doul fan; he was trying to make it as a pitcher for about a decade before he switched to hitting. Of course he didn't last too long once he did, (though long enough to win two batting titles and post the 4th highest BA of all time), but that was at least partly because he transitioned rapidly to coaching/managing and other off-field duties (leading barnstorming tours, promoting baseball on the West Coast & in Japan, etc.)

    Leave a comment:


  • redban
    replied
    Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
    I was reviewing Edgar's numbers. He effectively only had a half a season before age 27, becoming a regular at age 27. The only other player I know of who was a HOFer/near HOF/very good player who might deserve HOF consideration (take your choice) who didn't begin his career until age 27 is Sam Rice (who also had a half season before age 27).

    Other than special cases (Negro Leagues, Japanese League, wars/military service), are there any other greats that you're aware of who effectively didn't get a start until age 27?

    It makes Edgar's HOF run so unusual.
    Jorge Posada. Turned 27 in the middle of 1998.

    Leave a comment:


  • Toledo Inquisition
    replied
    I was reviewing Edgar's numbers. He effectively only had a half a season before age 27, becoming a regular at age 27. The only other player I know of who was a HOFer/near HOF/very good player who might deserve HOF consideration (take your choice) who didn't begin his career until age 27 is Sam Rice (who also had a half season before age 27).

    Other than special cases (Negro Leagues, Japanese League, wars/military service), are there any other greats that you're aware of who effectively didn't get a start until age 27?

    It makes Edgar's HOF run so unusual.

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    I would still rate Edgar as a marginal HOFer. He had a ton of support (from somewhere). It should be noted that if he played in the field and played poorly, he would be penalized. So, is it fair on those who fielded poorly, but didn't DH? ......r..
    I know there are issues with evalating defense, but they're not bad at determining if guys are good, average, or bad. Martinez is +17 for his career at the positions he played. He was at least average in his 560+ games at third, and maybe even better than that. Even an average 3B knocks the above argument into a cocked hat.

    Leave a comment:


  • JR Hart
    replied
    I would still rate Edgar as a marginal HOFer. He had a ton of support (from somewhere). It should be noted that if he played in the field and played poorly, he would be penalized. So, is it fair on those who fielded poorly, but didn't DH? Plus Edgar's counting numbers aren't eye popping, by any stretch

    runs > 169th
    hits >172nd
    doubles > 54th
    HRs > 139th
    RBI > 131st
    BB > 47th
    Total bases > 131st
    times on base > 86th
    Extra base hits > 97th

    Good for him that's he in, But I didn't understand the clamor..
    Last edited by JR Hart; 02-13-2019, 01:36 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Seattle1
    replied
    Well, he finally made it to the Hall Of Fame!

    https://www.si.com/mlb/video/2019/01...ooperstown-mlb

    At this writing, this poll which was created by Peggin_Maniac on June 6th, 2003, shows that 52.67% (79) of respondents voted "Yes" for Edgar Martinez going to the Hall Of Fame, while 34.00% (51) of respondents voted "No," and 13.33% (20) voted for "Undicided" [sic].

    At this point I guess the poll can be closed by a moderator (if it hasn't been already) because now we know the answer once and for all!
    Last edited by Seattle1; 02-15-2019, 05:57 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Phantom Dreamer
    replied
    Poor Edgar Martinez, never getting the respect he deserved, even on this card, misidentified as Rey freaking Sanchez, of all people. Grow the game.

    $_3 (10).JPG

    Leave a comment:


  • Seattle1
    replied
    http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/12/23/jaw...edgar-martinez

    He was clearly one of the best hitters in baseball, not only of his era but also of all time. Though the bulk of his career was spent as a designated hitter, advanced metrics show that his superiority with the bat transcended the role. He belongs in Cooperstown.

    Leave a comment:

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