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  • LOL!

    Well to be fair Jeter seems to be playing a little better up the middle the last couple of seasons, but yes...he's not a good role model for training young shortstops at defensive positioning OR fundamentals and footwork.

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    • Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
      LOL!

      Well to be fair Jeter seems to be playing a little better up the middle the last couple of seasons, but yes...he's not a good role model for training young shortstops at defensive positioning OR fundamentals and footwork.

      That stupid play when he dove into the stands after making a pretty good running catch....there's actually some schmucks around here in the NY area who think it was one of the greatest plays they ever saw. The other team's SS made an even better play on a deep popup down the LF line in the same game, but since he wasn't as clumsy as Jeter, he didn't need to dive into the stands after the catch.

      The Yankees have not won anything since Jeter was named captain in June of 2003. Actually the team has gotten progressively worse in every season since then. "Captain Collapse" presided over the biggest collapse in the history of post season sports in 2004, against Boston.

      Here's what the team has done since Jeter was named captain.

      2003 - lost world series
      2004 - lost ALCS after leading thre games to none.....LOL
      2005 - lost in first round in 5 games
      2006 - lost in first round in 4 games
      2007 - wild card - lost in first round in 4 games
      2008 - did not make playoffs....LOL
      Last edited by SavoyBG; 06-19-2009, 10:30 PM.

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      • The Yankees don't know how to build a team...they spend money on players but they don't fit well together emotionally or sabermetrically...the team has become increasingly unstable, and increasingly flawed. They make no attempt to field a competent team defense, they focus on big name pitchers, most of whom are over or near 30 when they get to New York, many of whom flamed out horribly upon their arrival. They don't spend their money on good back-up plans the way Boston does (when a big name player stops producing as is the case with Ortiz, Boston has competent major league bench players who can step up and keep that spot from being a black hole...when the Yankees lose A-Rod, they play Cody farking Ransom...LOL), and they don't emphasize player development. Not to mention the way they horribly mistreated Torre.

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        • Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
          The Yankees don't know how to build a team...they spend money on players but they don't fit well together emotionally or sabermetrically...the team has become increasingly unstable, and increasingly flawed. They make no attempt to field a competent team defense, they focus on big name pitchers, most of whom are over or near 30 when they get to New York, many of whom flamed out horribly upon their arrival. They don't spend their money on good back-up plans the way Boston does (when a big name player stops producing as is the case with Ortiz, Boston has competent major league bench players who can step up and keep that spot from being a black hole...when the Yankees lose A-Rod, they play Cody farking Ransom...LOL), and they don't emphasize player development. Not to mention the way they horribly mistreated Torre.

          It's no accident that Boston pulled ahead of New York in putting a team together just after they hired BJ.

          Their outfield defense right now is brutal. Only Melky can throw, and the corner outfielders (Damon and Swisher) at the moment are really bad. The infield is not any better at 2B and SS. The only position where they have even an above average fielder is 1B.

          A-Rod is 3 for his last 34 and is "resting" tonight and tomorrow in Florida. He's now at .212 for the season.

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          • Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
            The Yankees don't know how to build a team...they spend money on players but they don't fit well together emotionally or sabermetrically...the team has become increasingly unstable, and increasingly flawed. They make no attempt to field a competent team defense, they focus on big name pitchers, most of whom are over or near 30 when they get to New York, many of whom flamed out horribly upon their arrival. They don't spend their money on good back-up plans the way Boston does (when a big name player stops producing as is the case with Ortiz, Boston has competent major league bench players who can step up and keep that spot from being a black hole...when the Yankees lose A-Rod, they play Cody farking Ransom...LOL), and they don't emphasize player development. Not to mention the way they horribly mistreated Torre.
            That post is full of good points. With the money they spend (approximately 50% more than any other Major League team), if the Yankees don't win the division every single year, they're a monumental failure as a team. Why do they routinely sign high-profile pitchers who are past their primes? It would only mildly surprise me if they offered Tom Glavine a 2-year/$10 million deal.

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            • how does every conversation on here turn into a discussion about the Yankees/Bosox?

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              • Originally posted by Milt on Tilt View Post
                how does every conversation on here turn into a discussion about the Yankees/Bosox?
                Who knows.



                Barry Larkin is the subject matter. We've seen far too many threads hijacked of late. Please create a new thread if you *must* talk about a subject matter that has nothing to do with the present thread.
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                • Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
                  I have Larkin ahead of CAL RIPKEN...despite 3000 fewer plate appearances.

                  Ripken was better in his very best seasons, but Larkin held his peak performance WAY better than Ripken did...oh and Ripken spent nearly half his career as a noticeably below average bat and that was almost never true of Larkin.
                  --For Ripken's first 10 years as an everyday SS (and in his case everyday is literal) he posted a 128 OPS+ and was never below average as a hitter. Not just for a SS for for anybody. He stayed at SS another 5 years and was slightly below average as a hitter, but still an above average hittign SS. He probably should have retired rather than move to 3b, as he was never above average after the move (well he had one very nice partial season), but I can't hold that against him. Larkin is a Hall of Famer in my book, but Ripken ranks significantly higher.

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                  • Hitting includes baserunning too, Mark. When you consider baserunning (there is a league average rate of production on the bases), Ripken was, in total, a below average hitter from 1992 through 2001 (only 1999 excluded). That's 9 below average offensive seasons compared to 11 above average seasons.

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                    • I'm rooting for Barry, and I think most people who saw him a lot are, too. I remember for many years, I would go to the Reds games a few times a year, and it seemed every game Larkin would do something exceptional. I remember us Reds fans waiting for Ozzie Smith (who I also love) to decline or retire so Larkin could finally get his well deserved GG.

                      Such a long career at SS and a .295 average? Power and speed, great glove, team captain, beloved in the city he spent his whole career in? Yes, he is deserving. Yes, he will eventually get in.

                      I agree with a friend who said Larkin will get more 2010 votes than McGwire. I'd put 'em both in, Big Mac being automatic (500, 3000, 300 are magic numbers for me).
                      I just enjoy what happens between the lines.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by fan View Post
                        I'm rooting for Barry, and I think most people who saw him a lot are, too. I remember for many years, I would go to the Reds games a few times a year, and it seemed every game Larkin would do something exceptional. I remember us Reds fans waiting for Ozzie Smith (who I also love) to decline or retire so Larkin could finally get his well deserved GG.

                        Such a long career at SS and a .295 average? Power and speed, great glove, team captain, beloved in the city he spent his whole career in? Yes, he is deserving. Yes, he will eventually get in.

                        I agree with a friend who said Larkin will get more 2010 votes than McGwire. I'd put 'em both in, Big Mac being automatic (500, 3000, 300 are magic numbers for me).
                        Larkin would be a huge HOF injustice if snubbed. That being said, he wasn't better than Ripken, and he wasn't better than Jeter. Injuries made the difference.
                        "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                        NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                          Larkin would be a huge HOF injustice if snubbed. That being said, he wasn't better than Ripken, and he wasn't better than Jeter. Injuries made the difference.
                          I wouldn't characterize it as a 'huge injustice' if Larkin isn't elected. Larkin had the benefit of playing a large chunk of his career, mostly the first half, in a WEAK era for offensive shortstops in both leagues. Larkin was a fine player, but up against this backdrop he appeared better than he was. If he had entered the league post 1997 with the likes of Tejada, Jeter, Garciaparra & Rodriguez coming up, Larkin would have perpetually been thought of as the 3rd or 4th best SS in baseball. As such, only Ripken gave him any sort of consistent run on offensive prowess as Trammell was just about done when Larkin came up.

                          I personally believe Larkin to be overrated, although he was a fine multi-dimensional player with a good glove. The injury thing though greatly diminishes his legacy as he only averaged about 116 games played per season. That's A LOT of playing time for the weak hitting utility guy, and was ultimately very detrimental to his teams causes. His counting stats for this era
                          are not overwhelming by any stretch. I wouldn't have any problem seeing Larkin in the HOF although I would have no complaint whatsoever if he were omitted.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan View Post
                            I wouldn't characterize it as a 'huge injustice' if Larkin isn't elected.
                            I guess it depends on how you judge "injustice" here.

                            Larkin was never the best SS during his days, but he was still a HOF quality player. A solid HOFer, but not an overwhelming one. There are other SS of his ilk not in the Hall (Bill Dahlen, Alan Trammell).

                            But if you (I) consider that half the SSs in the Hall were not as good as LArkin, then we have Larkin (and Dahlen and Trammell) as fitting your average/standard HOF SS.
                            From a positional equivalent, it would be like leaving out Sisler.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by dgarza View Post
                              But if you (I) consider that half the SSs in the Hall were not as good as LArkin, then we have Larkin (and Dahlen and Trammell) as fitting your average/standard HOF SS.
                              From a positional equivalent, it would be like leaving out Sisler.
                              I tend to give much less weight to historical selections vis a vis peer (more recent) standards. Obviously, when compared to the average SS HOF selection, Larkin is undeniably deserving; Trammell too for that matter. But judging by the standards of most recent elite SS of the last 25 years, Larkin starts looking more 'borderline'. I always weight the latter line of reasoning more heavily in my analysis as standards continue to tighten throughout the years.

                              If we start inducting every SS the way they used to 40+years ago when Rizzuto and Boudreau were elected, the Hall won't look very pretty. Larkin was obviously better than those two guys, but how does he stack up against recent contemporaries from the offensive era (1990-2004)? Maybe 4th or 5th best? Maybe that's good enough.

                              Comment


                              • To me, Barry Larkin is one of those HOF candidates who looks better while looking back on his career than (if we can remember) when he actually played.

                                I think he snuck buy us as fans. The patron saint of this type of player is Chipper Jones (among active players). When Jones retires, and when fans look back on his stats, they will say... dang he really put up some numbers.

                                Guys like this sometime have trouble getting into the HOF early on. Some make it, like Gary Carter, while others won't, like Tim Raines.

                                I am talking about the average fan now. I am sure anyone who posts here might consider Chipper Jones to be a first ballot guy, who deserves all the honors of being one of the all-time greats. But to the casual fan (and perhaps the average HOF voter) it might take some convincing to elevate him that high.

                                While it is not my favorite stat, Larkin had ten seasons of 118 OPS+ or better. That is pretty good hitting for a pretty good fielding shortstop.

                                And he had zero bad years between the ages of 24 and 36.

                                It might seem weird that a 12 time All-Star snuck by us, but I think he flew under the radar of the casual fan who was more impressed with the guys playing over in the American League at that time.

                                I see him having a Jim Rice type of HOF assent. Getting in.... eventually.
                                Your Second Base Coach
                                Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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