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Barry Larkin

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  • digglahhh
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    The thing about Larkin is he was injured alot, so he didnt really play a lot of full seasons. He only had about 8 full seasons, and 2 of them were strike years, and 4 of them really werent good. Plus he was good in a lot of areas, but not 'great' at anything besides maybe fielding..that may hurt him as well. His MVP means nothing as it was probably the least deserving MVP of the last 25 years ( come on, you had a catcher with a 1.16 OPS on the road on a first place team). Only scored over 100 runs twice (in the steroid era) The thing about Larkin is that his 162 per game averages are probbaly hall worthy, when you consider his fielding, but he seldom played anywhere near 162 games in a season, and was insonsistent.
    Rarely do we seem to agree, WS. But, we're close here.

    I don't even support Larkin, so much as I am sympathetic to his case. I'd probably vote for him, but not emphatically. The thing is that he has a good argument to rank pretty damn highly at his position all time, and that is hard to ignore.

    But, his durability was a concern, a big blemish for me. You basically got 120 games worth of Larkin and 40 from a replacement. That has to be factored into his value. If you have Larkin, holding on to a borderline starter level utility infielder is pretty much a must.

    At his best, his all around game was HOF caliber, sustaining it year in and year out, and within seasons, is the question mark.

    One issue I do take with your post is that the vast majority of Larkin's peak was outside what is commonly referred to as the steroid era.

    Somewhat paradoxically, if I were a voter, my ideal would be that Larkin would be able to get in without me having to actually vote for him.

    Leave a comment:


  • leecemark
    replied
    1) Wagner
    2) Arod
    3) Ripken
    4) Vaughan
    --Lloyd is in this top group too
    5) Yount
    6) Banks
    7) Cronin
    8) Appling
    --Jeter seems likely to get at least this high, but not yet.
    --There are a bunch of hard choices to round out the top 10, but Larkin is definately a contender. He is a a pretty tight group with Trammell, Smith and Davis, plus Negro Leaguer Willie Wells. Boudreau, Dahlen and Reese are not far behind that group either. Nomar is arguably in this third tier too, based strictly on his peak - but if Nomar then what about Jennings, Moore (NeL) and Stephens. Tejada could climb into this group too. The younger guys its way too soon to specualte on.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChrisLDuncan
    replied
    Originally posted by philkid3 View Post
    Off topic, but you mention Mussina's career WARP3. I'm a paying BP subscriber, but I can't for the life of me find pitchers' WARP3s.
    Advanced batting statistics, or something like that, just scroll down a bit. I'd say you can make a case for all of those guys over Larkin, not that I'd agree with it. However the thing that makes me say yes to Larkin is that he's probably a top ten SS, because I'd go something like:
    Wagner
    A-Rod
    Vaughn
    Jeter (soon enough)
    Ripken
    Nomar
    Yount
    Cronin
    after Cronin there isn't a whole whole lot out there, there's Smith and Vizquel but I'd say Larkin was better. Another thing is that with guys like Hanley and Reyes comming into their own they may end up better than Larkin too, so it's a fine line. However, I'd lean yes to Larkin.

    Leave a comment:


  • philkid3
    replied
    Off topic, but you mention Mussina's career WARP3. I'm a paying BP subscriber, but I can't for the life of me find pitchers' WARP3s.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChrisLDuncan
    replied
    This I don't know, I think he probably should be in the HoF...however as to if he'll get in is a different question. I really don't see anything that seperates him from a player like Ryne Sanberg, who I think is better, so maybe on the fifth or six to around. Trouble is look at all the players that recently retired or are retiring soon (not to mention the ones out that need to be in):

    Craig Biggio
    Jeff Bagwell
    Curt Schilling
    Pedro Martinez (he's got maybe a year or two left)
    Tom Glavine
    Roger Clemens (It's time buddy)
    Greg Maddux
    Randy Johnson
    Mike Mussina (do me a favor and retire this year, higher career WARP3 than Larkin)
    Barry Bonds (yes I know and if writers don't elect him they may as well burn the hall down)
    Sammy Sosa (600?)
    Frank Thomas
    Jim Thome
    Manny Ramirez (maybe, I dunno about this one, I'd he could go six more if he wanted too)
    Mariano Rivera
    Jorge Posada
    Trevor Hoffman
    Billy Wagner
    Ivan Rodriguez (Mags too?)
    Vlad (looks like he may break down soon enough)
    Mike Piazza
    Todd Helton
    Brian Giles
    Bobby Abreu
    Nomar Garciaparra
    Jeff Kent
    Omar Vizquel
    Jim Edmonds (I don't think he belogns but voters will say LOOK AT TEH GOLD GLOVEZ!!!111!!!)
    Ken Griffey Jr.
    Maybe Andruw Jones for the same reason as Edmonds, but I say no too him too
    Chipper Jones
    John Smoltz



    He's eligible in 2009 if I'm not mistaken, now I don't think he's a first ballot guy, but after that there's others that will become eligible, IMO that list should last us on the HOF ballot until about 2015. I don't see how he gets in with those guys. After that class passes, you'll have the A'Rods, the Pujolses, the Jeters, the Santanas, and others that will be in the hall. So there's a damn good chance that he misses the hall.

    I'd put his chances at 51% for making it.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    The thing about Larkin is he was injured alot, so he didnt really play a lot of full seasons. He only had about 8 full seasons, and 2 of them were strike years, and 4 of them really werent good. Plus he was good in a lot of areas, but not 'great' at anything besides maybe fielding..that may hurt him as well. His MVP means nothing as it was probably the least deserving MVP of the last 25 years ( come on, you had a catcher with a 1.16 OPS on the road on a first place team). Only scored over 100 runs twice (in the steroid era) The thing about Larkin is that his 162 per game averages are probbaly hall worthy, when you consider his fielding, but he seldom played anywhere near 162 games in a season, and was insonsistent.

    Leave a comment:


  • Los Bravos
    replied
    Originally posted by Senor Octobre View Post
    I voted no clue. I know he deserves it, but... knowing the voters' track record...
    That's about where I am, too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Senor Octobre
    replied
    I voted no clue. I know he deserves it, but... knowing the voters' track record...

    Leave a comment:


  • digglahhh
    replied
    If I was an oddsmaker, I'd posit that the likelihood of him going one and done is greater than the likelihood of him going first ballot.

    I'd actually say the same thing for Raines.

    I'd support both, Raines more adamantly than Larkin, but I think 35% on the first ballot would be a huge achievement.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    How long it will take is an open question, but Larkin is too good for his quality to not eventually be recognized.

    Leave a comment:


  • SamtheBravesFan
    replied
    I'd have to say yes.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    I think it's hard to get a read on how voters will react to Larkin being on the ballot.

    Leave a comment:


  • KCGHOST
    replied
    I voted "Yes", but I really mean "I Think So". The guy should make it on merit alone, but funny things can happen to middle infielders on the way to Cooperstown.

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    I do believe so. He was a complete player, well-liked by fans and writers. I don't think he'll be first-ballot. The HOF voters will likely treat him as they did Ryne Sandberg, a couple of years on the ballot but in after not too long a wait.
    I agree. The voters will likely take a few years to get with it. I'm wondering if Roberto Alomar might get similar treatment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    I'd like to think he will go with the MVP beign a tipping point. However, Trammell is resonably similar and hasn't had great support so I fear Larkin may fare no better.
    I think Larkin was a little better as a hitter, baserunner and fielder. That might be enough.

    Leave a comment:

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