Barry Larkin

[Paul Wendt]

... Also, at the time of his retirement, Sandberg was tied for the M.L. record (in 1000 or more career games played) for the highest career fielding percentage by a second baseman at .989 with Tommy Herr. Since then, Polanco has gone on to set the career M.L. record, but Sandberg and Herr still co-own the N.L. one.

Thanks.

Polanco is active but very unlikely to drop below Sandberg and Herr (i don't know about other actives). Approximately,

Sandberg, 109 errors in 10000 chances
Herr, 77 errors in 7000 chances
Polanco, 36 errors in 5000 chances

That errorless 2007 season (141 games at 2b) was Polanco's best season at bat, too, maybe good enough to be league MVP in 2006.

[brett]

Thanks.

Polanco is active but very unlikely to drop below Sandberg and Herr (i don't know about other actives). Approximately,

Sandberg, 109 errors in 10000 chances
Herr, 77 errors in 7000 chances
Polanco, 36 errors in 5000 chances

That errorless 2007 season (141 games at 2b) was Polanco's best season at bat, too, maybe good enough to be league MVP in 2006.

And oddly or not, his '07 season rates out as basically average in the metrics I checked quickly. +3 runs above average on baseball prospectus, +less than 1 on baseball reference.

Here is what their systems say about some of these very low error guys for their career:
Polanco: +52/+63.8
Sandberg: +52/+56.6
Herr: -25/-14.2

Point is, what difference do errors matter when they occur 5-10 times a season for these guys, and when a guy with great range can make 40 or more plays above average in a great year?

Compare to:

Willie Randolph: +117/+114.5
Frank White: +187/+125.6
Maz: +203/+148.1
Grich: +130/+70.9

Keep in mind that we are looking at guys who saved 10+ runs per 162 games. 10 runs per 162 is about the same value as you owuld get by bumping their OPS+ up by 12-13 points.

[Paul Wendt]

The general point is sound, but

Polanco's +52 is for fielding secondbase only, 1014 games.
(Davenport credits him with +53 runs at third and short in 443 games!)

Randolph's +118 is also for fielding secondbase only, 2153 games.

The rates are more than 8 runs/162g for Polanco, less than 9 runs/162g for Randolph.


Barry Larkin at shortstop is +60 runs in 2084 games, including +75 thru 1994 and below average thereafter.

[stejay]

Barry Larkin?

HOFer, or not? I personally say yes, but hey, i'm usually wrong with my gut instinct on this matter.
Some stats....
198 HR
1329 runs
2340 hits
960 RBI
379 SB
.295 BA
.371 OBP
.444 SLG
12x All Star
9x Silver Slugger
3x Gold Glove
1995 MVP
World Series champ 1990

Like I said, yes, a Reds, and SS legend,who I believe deserves to be in the hall

Agree? Disagree?

[dgarza]

Larkin? HOF? No doubt.

Larkin's a Top 15 SS. He's every bit deserving as Bill Dahlen, so...:disbelief:

[gman5431]

I'm from Cincy so i'm a little biased. I will say this, i consider Larkin a better player than Ozzie Smith and he is already in the Hall of Fame. I watched Larkin's entire career and while he was a consistent and steady player, at no time did i ever consider him a HOF player. I guess he is one of those guys who did it long enough to accumulate enough ABs and production to make a strong case. What i'm saying is he seems to be a HOFer but while he was playing he seemed like just one of the guys. There were plenty of years he wasnt the best player on his own team and probably outside of the top 10-15 in the league. Playing a premium position helps him of course as does his MVP and his mix of speed and power.

G Rizzle

[jalbright]

Larkin threads merged.

[Paul Wendt]

I'm from Cincy so i'm a little biased.

biased in that the grass is always greener on the other side?

After 1990 some people did consider him a probable Hall of Famer. I guess many people did. Outside of Cincinnati, he was a lot like Tony Gwynn, the only player on his team whom many of us could name. (I assure you, however, that I could have named Jose Rijo every year he was active and some years he wasn't.)

How can you be a perennial all-star at the most glamorous position on the field, playing in your hometown, and not be a "future Hall of Famer" there?

[Jsquared83]

Larkin falls a tad short for me because A) his defense was good not great and B) his hitting was also good, not great. C) counting stats look paltry compared to some of his contemporaries. However his rate stats put him right in the middle of the all-time great shortstops. While he's just short in my book, I wouldnt object to his (eventual) election.

[dgarza]

After 1990 some people did consider him a probable Hall of Famer. I guess many people did.

Seems a bit soon.
Through 1990 he had only 5 seasons, only 3 really full seasons.
105 OPS+
Only 38 HRs
Just 3 ASG, never a starter.
Was just beginning to develop his fielding.
No GGs.
Was just beginning to get heavy recognition - 7th in NL MVP in 1990.
Just making post-season appearances.
Inconsistency was an issue he was just beginning to get out from under.
Still playing under the shadow of the ghost of Concepcion.

No one in Cincinnati saw him as a Future HOFer at that point. Nor should have anyone.
A probably HOFer after just 5 seasons of "still develping" play? Not likely. He still had much to prove.
He was showing speed and developing into a .300 hitter, but he wasn't comeing out of the gate like a Fregosi or a Ripken or anything like that, more like a Garry Templeton.

Outside of Cincinnati, he was a lot like Tony Gwynn, the only player on his team whom many of us could name. (I assure you, however, that I could have named Jose Rijo every year he was active and some years he wasn't.)

Surely Chris Sabo and Eric Davis (who was much popular while teammates with Larkin) would have been on your tongue.

[Paul Wendt]

On the championship team I could have named other players, yes. That line refers to his career, or to Larkin in the 1990s ~ Gwynn in the 1990s. I should have said he became a lot like Gwynn.

Otherwise we may agree to disagree. If people in Cincinnati didn't see him as a likely Hall of Fame player, that's a shame. He was the best player on a team that led every day of the season and swept the World Series. Another shortstop batting like Ripken and Trammell. All-star games in his sophomore, junior, and senior seasons, probably a perennial. In his home town.

One of the CBS radio announcers* during the playoffs said he may be the best playerin baseball. (What men with mikes say about a Larkin or a Puckett or a Gwynn because they don't much like a Henderson or a Bonds.)

*Johnny Bench and Jack Buck?
Offhand I would guess JB.

[Captain Cold Nose]

On the championship team I could have named other players, yes. That line refers to his career, or to Larkin in the 1990s ~ Gwynn in the 1990s. I should have said he became a lot like Gwynn.

Otherwise we may agree to disagree. If people in Cincinnati didn't see him as a likely Hall of Fame player, that's a shame. He was the best player on a team that led every day of the season and swept the World Series. Another shortstop batting like Ripken and Trammell. All-star games in his sophomore, junior, and senior seasons, probably a perennial. In his home town.

One of the CBS radio announcers* during the playoffs said he may be the best playerin baseball. (What men with mikes say about a Larkin or a Puckett or a Gwynn because they don't much like a Henderson or a Bonds.)

*Johnny Bench and Jack Buck?
Offhand I would guess JB.

Larkin was well-regarded. But, his biggest crime toward non-acceptance was he wasn't a member of the Big Red Machine. No matter what happens those memories were invoked. When longtime Reds writer Hal McCoy wrote in his blog about whether Larkin would get elected last month, the discussion pretty much turned into a "Davey Concepción is not in, so Larkin should not be" or "no one should get in until Pete Rose does" argument.

[dgarza]

On the championship team I could have named other players, yes. That line refers to his career, or to Larkin in the 1990s ~ Gwynn in the 1990s. I should have said he became a lot like Gwynn.

That's pretty true. Guys like Hal Morris and Reggie Sanders were not exactly household names.

Otherwise we may agree to disagree. If people in Cincinnati didn't see him as a likely Hall of Fame player, that's a shame. He was the best player on a team that led every day of the season and swept the World Series. Another shortstop batting like Ripken and Trammell. All-star games in his sophomore, junior, and senior seasons, probably a perennial. In his home town.

I think you're in the minority here.

And he was not batting quite like Ripken or Trammell have done, both of whom have had clearly better years than Larkin had yet. Larkin had no real track record yet (or at the most he was only beginning to build one from the past 2-3 years).
He was more like Garry Templeton. Don't see much of a difference in their beginnings. They were both roughly .300 batters, with good defense, and neither considered a slugger. So Garry Templeton was a probably HOFer by 1980?

Larkin was showing potential at the bat by 1990, but he was not a probable HOFer at the point yet.

SS OPS+ - 1st 5 seasons - 1960-1990 - 100+ games :

                                         
Rk              Player OPS+   G From   To
1           Cal Ripken  130 668 1981 1985
2          Woodie Held  121 109 1960 1960
3          Jim Fregosi  119 531 1961 1965
4            Jody Reed  110 419 1987 1990
5          Dickie Thon  108 454 1979 1983
[B]6         Barry Larkin  105 572 1986 1990[/B]
7      Garry Templeton  104 633 1976 1980
8          Denis Menke  104 556 1962 1966
9       Tony Fernandez  102 573 1983 1987
10     Bert Campaneris  100 659 1964 1968
11      Dick McAuliffe  100 539 1960 1964
12        Jeff Blauser   99 326 1987 1990
13         Roy Smalley   99 692 1975 1979
14         Jerry Adair   99 275 1960 1962
15     Rico Petrocelli   98 508 1963 1968

SS OPS+ - thru age 26 - 1960-1990 - 100+ games :

                                          
Rk              Player OPS+    G From   To
1           Cal Ripken  125  992 1981 1987
2          Jim Fregosi  117 1003 1961 1968
3      Rico Petrocelli  115  662 1963 1969
4            Jody Reed  111  264 1987 1989
5       Dick McAuliffe  110  776 1960 1966
6          Dickie Thon  109  459 1979 1984
7          Toby Harrah  109  681 1969 1975
8        Alan Trammell  107  989 1977 1984
9          Robin Yount  106 1240 1974 1982
[B]10        Barry Larkin  105  572 1986 1990[/B]
11      Tony Fernandez  102  727 1983 1988
12         Denis Menke  101  685 1962 1967
13     Garry Templeton  100  854 1976 1982
14     Bert Campaneris  100  659 1964 1968
15        Jeff Blauser   99  326 1987 1990

[Fuzzy Bear]

I find it mind-numbing that Larkin did so poorly. I suspect that he'll improve rapidly in the balloting, but he's starting from a rather low threshhold, so . . .

[Cowtipper]

This may be the year...