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  • I hope so. Larkin has the best chance, the only legit chance IMO, and it would be a shame if the upcoming induction ceremonies occur without a new and deserving player.
    http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

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    • Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
      Larkin's an easy Hall of Famer. He hit like a Hall of Fame shortstop, so that should be good enough, but he was also a terrific fielder and baserunner. He was the very definition of a complete, high percentage player. He has the numbers of a Hall of Famer, but furthermore, he passes the test of the emphasis on the "Fame" part. Larkin was regarded as a genuine superstar in his day. It would be sheer absurdity to keep him out.
      Was Larkin really regarded "as a genuine superstar" in his day?

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      • Originally posted by George H Ruth View Post
        Was Larkin really regarded "as a genuine superstar" in his day?
        Yes, he was.
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        • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
          Yes, he was.
          How so? Please explain.

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          • All players in history with 1500+ G at SS, 175+ HR and 175+ SB
            Code:
            Rk          Player  HR  SB WAR/pos    G
            1      Derek Jeter 240 339    70.8 2426
            2     Barry Larkin 198 379    68.9 2180
            3    Alan Trammell 185 236    66.9 2293
            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

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            • Originally posted by George H Ruth View Post
              How so? Please explain.
              - Barry Larkin won the NL MVP in 1995, and that is generally a good indication of stardom amongst the writers... however, Larkin has only one other top-ten MVP finish and doesn't finish that strongly in overall MVP Shares (1.10, 217th).

              - Larkin went to twelve All-Star games, including eleven in a thirteen year span. Consecutive All-Star games point to a level of stardom in addition to on-field performance. He went to an All-Star game at age 40, normally an indication he had quite a reputation by then.

              - Sports Illustrated named Barry Larkin one of the 11 greatest athletes to wear #11. Notables on the list include Elvin Hayes, Carl Hubbell, Edgar Martinez, Mark Messier, Isiah Thomas, and Norm Van Brocklyn.

              - Speaking of Sports Illustrated, here is a quote from "A Red Menace Once Again", a 1992 article by William F. Reed:

              (Bip Roberts) wasn't comfortable in San Diego, though, where he fell out of favor with manager Greg Riddoch and complained that management had soured the atmosphere. But in Cincinnati, Roberts has been a perfect fit on an overachieving team that, with the exception of shortstop Barry Larkin, has no stars. Roberts arrived with a band of other newcomers who were brought aboard in the off-season's most dazzling display of wheeling and dealing, all of it orchestrated by general manager Bob Quinn. In lefthander Greg Swindell, rescued from oblivion in Cleveland, and righthander Tim Belcher, plucked from Los Angeles in the blockbuster deal that sent Eric Davis to the Dodgers, Cincinnati got two first-rate starters. And in Dave Martinez, obtained from the Montreal Expos, the Reds added a solid defensive outfielder.
              Reed further explains Larkin's downplayed gravitas not far removed from the 1990 World Championship team:

              In a matter of just two months, Quinn had landed not only Roberts and Martinez, but Swindell and Belcher as well. Almost everybody familiar with the Reds and their reputation for conservative behavior was shocked. Still, Quinn had one more matter to resolve. He knew that all his moves would prove futile if the Reds let Larkin get away to free agency. So on Jan. 18 Quinn had breakfast with Larkin's agent, Eric Goldschmidt. By lunchtime Quinn had called Marge Schott, the team's principal owner. Says Quinn, "I told her, 'This is the ballpark figure it's going to take to get Larkin signed.' She didn't like that ballpark, but she knew that we had to sign him. One thing you've got to say about Marge, and I know she has a reputation for being thrifty, is that there's never been a player that we wanted to sign who got away." Larkin signed for a club-record $25.6 million over five years.

              Neither Larkin's teammates nor the Cincinnati fans appear to begrudge Barry his bucks, because everyone knows how much he means to the team. As for Larkin, he pooh-poohs the notion that his contract puts new pressure on him. "The only thing new," he says, "is that I get a lot more calls from people wanting me to invest in things."

              One explanation for Larkin's continuing popularity is that he doesn't think of himself as a superstar. "I'm amoeba man," he says. "I'll take any shape, do whatever it takes, to win." This season he has had to do whatever it takes just to play; a series of injuries has made him a prime candidate for the next BIP trophy. Larkin finally found his hitting stroke after coming off the disabled list on May 8 and boosted his average from .179 to .292. His defense has been so exquisite that even St. Louis fans would be hard-pressed to argue that Ozzie Smith is still the league's premier shortstop.

              Larkin's low-key leadership has helped the newcomers make the transition to Cincinnati, which is not without its pressures. Before spring training Belcher noted that, as a native of Sparta, Ohio, and a Reds fan while growing up, he was happy to be back home. However, said Belcher, "the Reds players live in much more of a fishbowl than the Dodger players, because in the summertime, baseball is the only game in town in Cincinnati."
              J W
              Buck Showalter fanboy
              Last edited by J W; 12-01-2011, 11:52 AM.
              http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

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              • Originally posted by J W View Post
                - Barry Larkin won the NL MVP in 1995, and that is generally a good indication of stardom amongst the writers... however, Larkin has only one other top-ten MVP finish and doesn't finish that strongly in overall MVP Shares (1.10, 217th).

                - Larkin went to twelve All-Star games, including eleven in a thirteen year span. Consecutive All-Star games point to a level of stardom in addition to on-field performance. He went to an All-Star game at age 40, normally an indication he had quite a reputation by then.

                - Sports Illustrated named Barry Larkin one of the 11 greatest athletes to wear #11. Notables on the list include Elvin Hayes, Carl Hubbell, Edgar Martinez, Mark Messier, Isiah Thomas, and Norm Van Brocklyn.

                - Speaking of Sports Illustrated, here is a quote from "A Red Menace Once Again", a 1992 article by William F. Reed:



                Reed further explains Larkin's downplayed gravitas not far removed from the 1990 World Championship team:
                This board needs a "like" button.

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                • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                  Larkin was well-regarded. But, his biggest crime toward non-acceptance was he wasn't a member of the Big Red Machine. No matter what happens those memories were invoked. When longtime Reds writer Hal McCoy wrote in his blog about whether Larkin would get elected last month, the discussion pretty much turned into a "Davey ConcepciĆ³n is not in, so Larkin should not be" or "no one should get in until Pete Rose does" argument.
                  Hal really blows my mind some of the time. It's like he's not even watching the same team that I am.

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                  • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                    Yes, he was.
                    I don't know about 'superstar'. 'Star'? Sure. Larkin was really hurt by the influx of great hitting shortstops that came in just as he was hitting his prime. It seemed like all the REAL star shortstops were in the AL, and Larkin always got the all star nod in the NL practically by default. He wouldn't be a bad choice for the hall, but to me, a few more years at his 1996 level would make him seem like a superstar. As it is, what really makes Larkin any better than a guy like Alan Trammell?

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                    • You're looking through the wrong end of the binoculars. Trammell and Larkin are substantially similar. That means they should both be in the Hall, not that Larkin should be getting the same crummy treatment as Alan.
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                      • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                        You're looking through the wrong end of the binoculars. Trammell and Larkin are substantially similar. That means they should both be in the Hall, not that Larkin should be getting the same crummy treatment as Alan.
                        To you maybe. To me, they are both around the borderline. Both guys suffered from playing at the same time as an all time great shortstop (Ripken, A-rod) and being overshadowed. Even though Larkin's numbers add up to fit comfortably among other hall of fame shortstops, it's just hard to get the thought out of my mind that A-rod was matching his best season(and a fluke season at that), and usually far surpassing it, almost every year of his career. Somehow it mentally makes Larkin seem second rate.

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                        • All I can say to that is, Larkin's heyday was before that of A-Rod. Larkin was one of the bigger stars of the early 90s; Rodriguez didn't hit it big until the late 90s. When A-Rod first burst onto the scene at age 20 (finishing second in AL MVP voting in 1996), Larkin was already 32 and coming off his own NL MVP in '95. By the time A-Rod started his consecutive string of 40-HR seasons in 1998, Larkin was nearly finished with his peak performance. Cal Ripken would actually be more contemporary to Larkin in terms of when they were stars.

                          If you asked Joe Baseball Fan just before the strike of 1994 to name ten current baseball players, there is a good chance Barry Larkin's name would come up.
                          J W
                          Buck Showalter fanboy
                          Last edited by J W; 12-02-2011, 09:54 AM.
                          http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by J W View Post
                            All I can say to that is, Larkin's heyday was before that of A-Rod. Larkin was one of the bigger stars of the early 90s; Rodriguez didn't hit it big until the late 90s. When A-Rod first burst onto the scene at age 20 (finishing second in AL MVP voting in 1996), Larkin was already 32 and coming off his own NL MVP in '95. By the time A-Rod started his consecutive string of 40-HR seasons in 1998, Larkin was nearly finished with his peak performance. Cal Ripken would actually be more contemporary to Larkin in terms of when they were stars.

                            If you asked Joe Baseball Fan just before the strike of 1994 to name ten current baseball players, there is a good chance Barry Larkin's name would come up.
                            Really? I dont remember that well, but I seem to recall him being a 'second tier' type of star. it seemed in the seasons he was really good, he missed a lot of time, and in his full seasons he didn't do much. He started to put it all together around 1995. I recall Roberto Alomar being seen as a bigger star. Looking back, though, they were pretty similar.
                            willshad
                            Registered User
                            Last edited by willshad; 12-02-2011, 01:08 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by willshad View Post
                              To you maybe. To me, they are both around the borderline. Both guys suffered from playing at the same time as an all time great shortstop (Ripken, A-rod) and being overshadowed. Even though Larkin's numbers add up to fit comfortably among other hall of fame shortstops, it's just hard to get the thought out of my mind that A-rod was matching his best season(and a fluke season at that), and usually far surpassing it, almost every year of his career. Somehow it mentally makes Larkin seem second rate.
                              Every great shortstop in history, with perhaps the exception of Honus Wagner, look "second rate" compared to Alex Rodriguez of the late 1990's-early 2000's.
                              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                              • Originally posted by J W View Post
                                All I can say to that is, Larkin's heyday was before that of A-Rod. Larkin was one of the bigger stars of the early 90s; Rodriguez didn't hit it big until the late 90s. When A-Rod first burst onto the scene at age 20 (finishing second in AL MVP voting in 1996), Larkin was already 32 and coming off his own NL MVP in '95. By the time A-Rod started his consecutive string of 40-HR seasons in 1998, Larkin was nearly finished with his peak performance. Cal Ripken would actually be more contemporary to Larkin in terms of when they were stars.

                                If you asked Joe Baseball Fan just before the strike of 1994 to name ten current baseball players, there is a good chance Barry Larkin's name would come up.
                                wWhat's interesting is that, though Larkin won the 1995 MVP, he was better in 1996.

                                1995: .319/.394/.492, 133 OPS+, 5.9 WAR
                                1996: .298/.410/.567, 154 OPS+, 7.4 WAR
                                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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