Barry Larkin

[cubbieinexile]

Originally posted by The Commissioner
I agree with Larkin being a Hall of Famer, but Mr. James is setting a bad example for today's youth culture through his apparent continual abuse of illegal narcotic substances.

I can certainly see Barry being rated above Cronin and Ozzie. Cronin was not as goog of an all-around player that Larkin was. His defense was no where near as good as Larkins. Plus there numbers are pretty close despite the fact that for the most part Cronin played in a better hitters era than Larkin. Ozzie had the defense but was nowhere near as good as Larkin is with the bat. Also Barry was not a bad fielder he was quite good. So it comes down to how much weight do you put on defense. I would not say not enough especially when you consider that Barry was quite good at defense to out weigh the hitting accomplishments.

The trouble with Barry is that he is fragile and had the misfortune of playing while the new wave of SS came onto the scene. If ozzie had started his career in 1990 or 1989 (like Omar) he probably wouldn't have a shot at the Hall. Fortunately for him he played at a time when most teams only required defense at SS.

[J W]

It's going to take a lot of screaming and yelling to get him in... so it's up to his supporters on the Association.

[abolishthedh]

A couple of years ago, during one game the Royals announcers were discussing possible HoFers who will retire after playing their entire careers with one team. With the exception of Barry, they listed everyone, including Gwynn and Ripken. I kept waiting for them to mention Barry, but they never did. This tells me that in the era of Arod, Nomar, Jeter, Tejada that Barry Larkin is already becoming less appreciated, and even forgotten. He'll probably get in, but it might take a while on the ballot.

[The Commissioner]

Originally posted by J W
...and of course he was rated sixth all-time at SS by Mr. James in his latest Abstract, ahead of Ozzie Smith and Joe Cronin.

I agree with Larkin being a Hall of Famer, but Mr. James is setting a bad example for today's youth culture through his apparent continual abuse of illegal narcotic substances.

[J W]

...and of course he was rated sixth all-time at SS by Mr. James in his latest Abstract, ahead of Ozzie Smith and Joe Cronin.

At that time, aside from the "uber-generation" players, only Honus Wagner, Monte Ward, and Arky Vaughan had a higher WS/season than Larkin's 28.12. Of course, that number would have gone down by now.

[Chadwick]

Where Larkin Rates Among Shorstops...
20th in hits
12th in doubles
7th in home runs
19th in runs batted in
14th in runs scored
13th in stolen bases
12th in walks
6th all-time in extra-base hits
11th all-time in total bases

Among shortstops with at least as many PAs...
5th in batting average
3rd in on base percentage
3rd in slugging percentage
3rd in OPS
3rd in Isolated Power (ISO)
1st in Secondary Average (SEC)

Using runs created...
12th in RC
4th in RC/27
6th in RCAA
3rd in RCAP

[Chadwick]

This from Baseball Library:

"Over the next several seasons, Larkin not only improved his play, but also grew into the role of team leader. In September of 1990, with the Reds struggling to close out the NL West title, he called a clubhouse meeting and ripped his teammates for coasting through the stretch run.

Some interesting stuff on that link, by the way.

Larkin was named the captain of the 1988 U.S. Barnstorming Tour of Japan.

Larkin hit .311 as a starter for the '84 Olympic Team.

MVP of the American Association in 1986.

August 17, 1986 was Larkin's first ML home run in the same game that was to be (player-manager) Pete Rose's last career game.

[Chadwick]

1990 Cincinnati Reds Win Shares
25 Barry Larkin
20 Chris Sabo
17 Eric Davis
17 Rob Dibble
17 Randy Myers
17 Jose Rijo
16 Paul O'Neill
15 Mariano Duncan
14 Norm Charlton
13 Tom Browning
12 Billy Hatcher
12 Joe Oliver
11 Hal Morris
10 Jack Armstrong

14 players with fewer than 10 win shares.

[Etheridge2]

Originally posted by Cougar
Certainly Larkin is at least arguably the best hitter. He led the team in hits, hit .301 in 614 AB (as opposed to Duncan hitting .306 in 435 AB). Other players had more power, true, but Larkin was the most reliable offensive player they had.

In addition, Larkin was:

* Definitely the most valuable fielder (gold glove caliber SS).

* Best baserunner (30 SB, SB% of 86%).

* Team captain.

With an ordinary shortstop...say, Walt Weiss (not to knock the guy, he's a nice complementary player) the Reds might have finished over .500, but weren't going to sniff the World Series.

With Larkin, they swept a dynastic A's team.

Actually you could argue for Eric Davis who had an 87.5% success rate with SB and also was a GG caliber fielder 1990 was the first year in 4 seasons he didn't win a GG (even though he had his best Fielding percentage that year)


I would say that Larkin was not clearly the best player on the Reds in 1990 but rather just one of many talented players who came together and won a championship

[Cougar]

Wouldn't surprise me either. As I said before, he's got that generalist problem, plus he'll be unfairly compared with the super-generation of shortstops today (as BoSox's knee jerk initial demonstration showed us -- good recovery BoSox! You learn better than most BBWAA writers.

[The Commissioner]

He definitely deserves to go in. However, as Clint Eastwood said, "deserves got nothing to do with it". I can easily see the writers unfairly overlooking his accomplishments 5 years after he retires.

[Cougar]

Certainly Larkin is at least arguably the best hitter. He led the team in hits, hit .301 in 614 AB (as opposed to Duncan hitting .306 in 435 AB). Other players had more power, true, but Larkin was the most reliable offensive player they had.

In addition, Larkin was:

* Definitely the most valuable fielder (gold glove caliber SS).

* Best baserunner (30 SB, SB% of 86%).

* Team captain.

With an ordinary shortstop...say, Walt Weiss (not to knock the guy, he's a nice complementary player) the Reds might have finished over .500, but weren't going to sniff the World Series.

With Larkin, they swept a dynastic A's team.

[Etheridge2]

Originally posted by Cougar
Barry Larkin is:

** Best player on a championship team (1990)

I question this one wouldn't the best player ona championship team have led his team in something

the 1990 Reds were led
In Runs, HR, and 2B by Chris Sabo
In RBI and SLG by Eric Davis
In BA and 3B by Mariano Duncan
In SB and OBP Larkin did lead though he tied Billy Hatcher for the SB lead

Larkin was 5th in OPS amongst Reds Starters that year.

He has the best career of the Reds Players on that team but he wasn't the best team at least not clearly the best Sabo, Davis, O'Neil, and Duncan could all lay claim to that as could Tom Browning or Randy Myers

[Eddie Collins]

Put those stats in the context of the time he played and they seem even better. He did not play his best years in the homer happy game we see now. Had he played today, that already impressive 30/30 season of 1995, may have turned into a 40+/30 season. He did win several gold gloves, but played spectacular defense even when he didn't win them. For most of the 90's he was the best shortstop in the NL and his All Star appearances prove that. He had a great combination of hitting for average, power, defense, speed, and clutch hitting. Even in his decline he keeps up with the clutch hits, last night hitting the game winner for the Reds. Earlier in the year he smashed a PH walkoff homer. If Larkin would have been able to stay healthy for these past few years, he would most likely have reached 2,500+ hits, almost guaranteeing him a place in the Hall.

Not to use the lowest common denominator theory as reason for HOF election, but I believe Larkin was superior to the following enshrined shortstops:
Rabbit Maranville
Dave Bancroft
Travis Jackson
Phil Rizzuto
Pee Wee Reese
etc etc etc( I dont feel like researching right now)

I am not saying that Larkin's numbers were just as good as these people and therefore he should be enshrined. Rather, I am pointing out that his numbers were DRASTICALLY better than many HOFers.

[J W]

Thank you so much, Cougar. You saved me a whole lot of typing.