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Barry Larkin

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  • Freakshow
    replied
    All players in history with 1500+ G at SS, 175+ HR and 175+ SB
    Code:
    Rk          Player  HR  SB WAR/pos    G
    1      Derek Jeter 240 339    70.8 2426
    2     Barry Larkin 198 379    68.9 2180
    3    Alan Trammell 185 236    66.9 2293

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  • George H Ruth
    replied
    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    Yes, he was.
    How so? Please explain.

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  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by George H Ruth View Post
    Was Larkin really regarded "as a genuine superstar" in his day?
    Yes, he was.

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  • George H Ruth
    replied
    Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
    Larkin's an easy Hall of Famer. He hit like a Hall of Fame shortstop, so that should be good enough, but he was also a terrific fielder and baserunner. He was the very definition of a complete, high percentage player. He has the numbers of a Hall of Famer, but furthermore, he passes the test of the emphasis on the "Fame" part. Larkin was regarded as a genuine superstar in his day. It would be sheer absurdity to keep him out.
    Was Larkin really regarded "as a genuine superstar" in his day?

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  • J W
    replied
    I hope so. Larkin has the best chance, the only legit chance IMO, and it would be a shame if the upcoming induction ceremonies occur without a new and deserving player.

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  • Cowtipper
    replied
    This may be the year...

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  • Fuzzy Bear
    replied
    I find it mind-numbing that Larkin did so poorly. I suspect that he'll improve rapidly in the balloting, but he's starting from a rather low threshhold, so . . .

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  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    On the championship team I could have named other players, yes. That line refers to his career, or to Larkin in the 1990s ~ Gwynn in the 1990s. I should have said he became a lot like Gwynn.
    That's pretty true. Guys like Hal Morris and Reggie Sanders were not exactly household names.

    Otherwise we may agree to disagree. If people in Cincinnati didn't see him as a likely Hall of Fame player, that's a shame. He was the best player on a team that led every day of the season and swept the World Series. Another shortstop batting like Ripken and Trammell. All-star games in his sophomore, junior, and senior seasons, probably a perennial. In his home town.
    I think you're in the minority here.

    And he was not batting quite like Ripken or Trammell have done, both of whom have had clearly better years than Larkin had yet. Larkin had no real track record yet (or at the most he was only beginning to build one from the past 2-3 years).
    He was more like Garry Templeton. Don't see much of a difference in their beginnings. They were both roughly .300 batters, with good defense, and neither considered a slugger. So Garry Templeton was a probably HOFer by 1980?

    Larkin was showing potential at the bat by 1990, but he was not a probable HOFer at the point yet.

    SS OPS+ - 1st 5 seasons - 1960-1990 - 100+ games :
    Code:
                                             
    Rk              Player OPS+   G From   To
    1           Cal Ripken  130 668 1981 1985
    2          Woodie Held  121 109 1960 1960
    3          Jim Fregosi  119 531 1961 1965
    4            Jody Reed  110 419 1987 1990
    5          Dickie Thon  108 454 1979 1983
    [B]6         Barry Larkin  105 572 1986 1990[/B]
    7      Garry Templeton  104 633 1976 1980
    8          Denis Menke  104 556 1962 1966
    9       Tony Fernandez  102 573 1983 1987
    10     Bert Campaneris  100 659 1964 1968
    11      Dick McAuliffe  100 539 1960 1964
    12        Jeff Blauser   99 326 1987 1990
    13         Roy Smalley   99 692 1975 1979
    14         Jerry Adair   99 275 1960 1962
    15     Rico Petrocelli   98 508 1963 1968
    SS OPS+ - thru age 26 - 1960-1990 - 100+ games :
    Code:
                                              
    Rk              Player OPS+    G From   To
    1           Cal Ripken  125  992 1981 1987
    2          Jim Fregosi  117 1003 1961 1968
    3      Rico Petrocelli  115  662 1963 1969
    4            Jody Reed  111  264 1987 1989
    5       Dick McAuliffe  110  776 1960 1966
    6          Dickie Thon  109  459 1979 1984
    7          Toby Harrah  109  681 1969 1975
    8        Alan Trammell  107  989 1977 1984
    9          Robin Yount  106 1240 1974 1982
    [B]10        Barry Larkin  105  572 1986 1990[/B]
    11      Tony Fernandez  102  727 1983 1988
    12         Denis Menke  101  685 1962 1967
    13     Garry Templeton  100  854 1976 1982
    14     Bert Campaneris  100  659 1964 1968
    15        Jeff Blauser   99  326 1987 1990
    Last edited by dgarza; 02-10-2010, 08:42 AM.

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  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    On the championship team I could have named other players, yes. That line refers to his career, or to Larkin in the 1990s ~ Gwynn in the 1990s. I should have said he became a lot like Gwynn.

    Otherwise we may agree to disagree. If people in Cincinnati didn't see him as a likely Hall of Fame player, that's a shame. He was the best player on a team that led every day of the season and swept the World Series. Another shortstop batting like Ripken and Trammell. All-star games in his sophomore, junior, and senior seasons, probably a perennial. In his home town.

    One of the CBS radio announcers* during the playoffs said he may be the best playerin baseball. (What men with mikes say about a Larkin or a Puckett or a Gwynn because they don't much like a Henderson or a Bonds.)

    *Johnny Bench and Jack Buck?
    Offhand I would guess JB.
    Larkin was well-regarded. But, his biggest crime toward non-acceptance was he wasn't a member of the Big Red Machine. No matter what happens those memories were invoked. When longtime Reds writer Hal McCoy wrote in his blog about whether Larkin would get elected last month, the discussion pretty much turned into a "Davey ConcepciĆ³n is not in, so Larkin should not be" or "no one should get in until Pete Rose does" argument.

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  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    On the championship team I could have named other players, yes. That line refers to his career, or to Larkin in the 1990s ~ Gwynn in the 1990s. I should have said he became a lot like Gwynn.

    Otherwise we may agree to disagree. If people in Cincinnati didn't see him as a likely Hall of Fame player, that's a shame. He was the best player on a team that led every day of the season and swept the World Series. Another shortstop batting like Ripken and Trammell. All-star games in his sophomore, junior, and senior seasons, probably a perennial. In his home town.

    One of the CBS radio announcers* during the playoffs said he may be the best playerin baseball. (What men with mikes say about a Larkin or a Puckett or a Gwynn because they don't much like a Henderson or a Bonds.)

    *Johnny Bench and Jack Buck?
    Offhand I would guess JB.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 02-10-2010, 07:54 AM.

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  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    After 1990 some people did consider him a probable Hall of Famer. I guess many people did.
    Seems a bit soon.
    Through 1990 he had only 5 seasons, only 3 really full seasons.
    105 OPS+
    Only 38 HRs
    Just 3 ASG, never a starter.
    Was just beginning to develop his fielding.
    No GGs.
    Was just beginning to get heavy recognition - 7th in NL MVP in 1990.
    Just making post-season appearances.
    Inconsistency was an issue he was just beginning to get out from under.
    Still playing under the shadow of the ghost of Concepcion.

    No one in Cincinnati saw him as a Future HOFer at that point. Nor should have anyone.
    A probably HOFer after just 5 seasons of "still develping" play? Not likely. He still had much to prove.
    He was showing speed and developing into a .300 hitter, but he wasn't comeing out of the gate like a Fregosi or a Ripken or anything like that, more like a Garry Templeton.

    Outside of Cincinnati, he was a lot like Tony Gwynn, the only player on his team whom many of us could name. (I assure you, however, that I could have named Jose Rijo every year he was active and some years he wasn't.)
    Surely Chris Sabo and Eric Davis (who was much popular while teammates with Larkin) would have been on your tongue.

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  • Jsquared83
    replied
    Larkin falls a tad short for me because A) his defense was good not great and B) his hitting was also good, not great. C) counting stats look paltry compared to some of his contemporaries. However his rate stats put him right in the middle of the all-time great shortstops. While he's just short in my book, I wouldnt object to his (eventual) election.

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  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    Originally posted by gman5431 View Post
    I'm from Cincy so i'm a little biased.
    biased in that the grass is always greener on the other side?

    After 1990 some people did consider him a probable Hall of Famer. I guess many people did. Outside of Cincinnati, he was a lot like Tony Gwynn, the only player on his team whom many of us could name. (I assure you, however, that I could have named Jose Rijo every year he was active and some years he wasn't.)

    How can you be a perennial all-star at the most glamorous position on the field, playing in your hometown, and not be a "future Hall of Famer" there?

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  • jalbright
    replied
    Larkin threads merged.

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  • gman5431
    replied
    I'm from Cincy so i'm a little biased. I will say this, i consider Larkin a better player than Ozzie Smith and he is already in the Hall of Fame. I watched Larkin's entire career and while he was a consistent and steady player, at no time did i ever consider him a HOF player. I guess he is one of those guys who did it long enough to accumulate enough ABs and production to make a strong case. What i'm saying is he seems to be a HOFer but while he was playing he seemed like just one of the guys. There were plenty of years he wasnt the best player on his own team and probably outside of the top 10-15 in the league. Playing a premium position helps him of course as does his MVP and his mix of speed and power.

    G Rizzle

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