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  • Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
    Which makes we wonder how many other 4th best offensive SSs in different era would we consider HOF material.

    1960-1974
    Code:
                                             
    Rk             Player OPS+    G   To From
    1         Jim Fregosi  114 1698 1961 1974
    2     Rico Petrocelli  113 1353 1963 1974
    3         Denis Menke  103 1598 1962 1974
    4      Eddie Bressoud  100  918 1960 1967
    5         Toby Harrah   97  530 1969 1974
    Eddie Bressourd is who?
    In the case of this era, none of these guys made the HOF. This was a bad offensive period of time so its obvious these guys offensive statistics pale in comparison to other shortstops from other eras.

    Leave a comment:


  • Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
    Which makes we wonder how many other 4th best offensive SSs in different era would we consider HOF material.

    1975-1998
    Code:
                                             
    Rk             Player OPS+    G   To From
    1          Cal Ripken  122 1476 1981 1990
    2         Robin Yount  119 2342 1975 1990
    3       Alan Trammell  114 1835 1977 1990
    4        Julio Franco  108 1221 1982 1990
    5        Barry Larkin  105  572 1986 1990
    Julio Franco usually isn't considered a HOF SS.

    1960-1974
    Code:
                                             
    Rk             Player OPS+    G   To From
    1         Jim Fregosi  114 1698 1961 1974
    2     Rico Petrocelli  113 1353 1963 1974
    3         Denis Menke  103 1598 1962 1974
    4      Eddie Bressoud  100  918 1960 1967
    5         Toby Harrah   97  530 1969 1974
    Eddie Bressourd is who?

    1945-1959
    Code:
                                              
    Rk              Player OPS+    G   To From
    1          Ernie Banks  139  922 1953 1959
    2         Lou Boudreau  121  840 1945 1952
    3         Luke Appling  118  637 1945 1950
    4        Vern Stephens  116 1290 1945 1955
    5         Harvey Kuenn  112 1049 1952 1959
    Vern Stephens does have his supporters.

    1930-1944
    Code:
                                              
    Rk              Player OPS+    G   To From
    1         Arky Vaughan  137 1688 1932 1943
    2           Joe Cronin  123 1863 1930 1944
    3         Lou Boudreau  119  806 1938 1944
    4         Cecil Travis  113 1102 1933 1941
    5         Luke Appling  111 1785 1930 1943
    Cecil Travis? Anyone?

    1915-1929
    Code:
                                              
    Rk              Player OPS+    G   To From
    1           Joe Sewell  113 1404 1920 1929
    2          Ray Chapman  112  773 1915 1920
    3    Charlie Hollocher  110  760 1918 1924
    4       Travis Jackson  106  899 1922 1929
    5        Topper Rigney  104  694 1922 1927
    Travis Jackson is in the HOF.

    1900-1914
    Code:
                                           
    Rk           Player OPS+    G   To From
    1      Honus Wagner  159 2080 1900 1914
    2      George Davis  113 1104 1900 1909
    3     Kid Elberfeld  106 1237 1901 1914
    4     Bobby Wallace  105 1806 1900 1914
    5      Art Fletcher  103  596 1909 1914
    Bobby Wallace is in the HOF.

    1885-1899
    Code:
                                              
    Rk              Player OPS+    G   To From
    1      Hughie Jennings  123  999 1891 1899
    2          Bill Dahlen  122 1107 1891 1899
    3            Ed McKean  114 1654 1887 1899
    4       Jack Glasscock  113 1204 1885 1895
    5            Jack Rowe  111  638 1885 1890
    Jack Glasscock has his supporters.

    1870-1884
    Code:
                                          
    Rk           Player OPS+   G   To From
    1     George Wright  125 591 1871 1882
    2         Tom Burns  110 433 1880 1884
    3    Jack Glasscock  108 532 1879 1884
    4       Sadie Houck  105 425 1879 1884
    5      Candy Nelson  101 472 1872 1884
    Sadie Houck is not a HOFer quality SS.
    This is an EXCELLENT post - thanks for that. It just proves what I was saying in that Larkin's accomplishments look less favorable in the context of what his peers were doing in relations to historical achievement at SS. This is why I am still on the fence with Larkin's HOF candidacy. He clearly belongs from an historical perspective but not necessarily from an era perspective; at least not according to your lists.

    If we were to just take historical achievements into consideration for a standard HOF shortstop, the Edgar Rentaria would be a lock and Tony Fernandez would probably make it.
    Last edited by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan; 12-16-2009, 06:06 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    It depends on how you look at it Larkins 118 OPS+ puts him 1st or w/in 5 points off 1st in every other era except for those where Banks, Vaughan and Wganer played. An of course he is compared to PED users (look above and below him other than Jeter) so I don't think that's fair to use that as Larkin's litmus test.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Which makes we wonder how many other 4th best offensive SSs in different era would we consider HOF material.

    1975-1998
    Code:
                                             
    Rk             Player OPS+    G   To From
    1          Cal Ripken  122 1476 1981 1990
    2         Robin Yount  119 2342 1975 1990
    3       Alan Trammell  114 1835 1977 1990
    4        Julio Franco  108 1221 1982 1990
    5        Barry Larkin  105  572 1986 1990
    Julio Franco usually isn't considered a HOF SS.

    1960-1974
    Code:
                                             
    Rk             Player OPS+    G   To From
    1         Jim Fregosi  114 1698 1961 1974
    2     Rico Petrocelli  113 1353 1963 1974
    3         Denis Menke  103 1598 1962 1974
    4      Eddie Bressoud  100  918 1960 1967
    5         Toby Harrah   97  530 1969 1974
    Eddie Bressourd is who?

    1945-1959
    Code:
                                              
    Rk              Player OPS+    G   To From
    1          Ernie Banks  139  922 1953 1959
    2         Lou Boudreau  121  840 1945 1952
    3         Luke Appling  118  637 1945 1950
    4        Vern Stephens  116 1290 1945 1955
    5         Harvey Kuenn  112 1049 1952 1959
    Vern Stephens does have his supporters.

    1930-1944
    Code:
                                              
    Rk              Player OPS+    G   To From
    1         Arky Vaughan  137 1688 1932 1943
    2           Joe Cronin  123 1863 1930 1944
    3         Lou Boudreau  119  806 1938 1944
    4         Cecil Travis  113 1102 1933 1941
    5         Luke Appling  111 1785 1930 1943
    Cecil Travis? Anyone?

    1915-1929
    Code:
                                              
    Rk              Player OPS+    G   To From
    1           Joe Sewell  113 1404 1920 1929
    2          Ray Chapman  112  773 1915 1920
    3    Charlie Hollocher  110  760 1918 1924
    4       Travis Jackson  106  899 1922 1929
    5        Topper Rigney  104  694 1922 1927
    Travis Jackson is in the HOF.

    1900-1914
    Code:
                                           
    Rk           Player OPS+    G   To From
    1      Honus Wagner  159 2080 1900 1914
    2      George Davis  113 1104 1900 1909
    3     Kid Elberfeld  106 1237 1901 1914
    4     Bobby Wallace  105 1806 1900 1914
    5      Art Fletcher  103  596 1909 1914
    Bobby Wallace is in the HOF.

    1885-1899
    Code:
                                              
    Rk              Player OPS+    G   To From
    1      Hughie Jennings  123  999 1891 1899
    2          Bill Dahlen  122 1107 1891 1899
    3            Ed McKean  114 1654 1887 1899
    4       Jack Glasscock  113 1204 1885 1895
    5            Jack Rowe  111  638 1885 1890
    Jack Glasscock has his supporters.

    1870-1884
    Code:
                                          
    Rk           Player OPS+   G   To From
    1     George Wright  125 591 1871 1882
    2         Tom Burns  110 433 1880 1884
    3    Jack Glasscock  108 532 1879 1884
    4       Sadie Houck  105 425 1879 1884
    5      Candy Nelson  101 472 1872 1884
    Sadie Houck is not a HOFer quality SS.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan View Post
    Larkin was obviously better than those two guys, but how does he stack up against recent contemporaries from the offensive era (1990-2004)? Maybe 4th or 5th best? Maybe that's good enough.
    That's a fair guess.

    500+ games
    Code:
                                              
    Rk              Player OPS+    G   To From
    1       Alex Rodriguez  143 1430 1994 2004
    2    Nomar Garciaparra  132 1009 1996 2004
    3          Derek Jeter  120 1366 1995 2004
    [B][U]4         Barry Larkin  118 1766 1990 2004[/U][/B]
    5        Miguel Tejada  110 1098 1997 2004
    6        John Valentin  109 1105 1992 2002
    7       Carlos Guillen  104  624 1998 2004
    8           Cal Ripken  104 1686 1990 2001
    9             Jay Bell  103 1869 1990 2003
    10        Jeff Blauser  103 1196 1990 1999
    11       Alan Trammell  103  604 1990 1996
    12        Rich Aurilia  101 1117 1995 2004
    13      Tony Fernandez  101 1291 1990 2001
    14       Jose Valentin   97 1434 1992 2004
    15      Edgar Renteria   95 1296 1996 2004
    16       Rafael Furcal   93  663 2000 2004
    17       Jimmy Rollins   92  636 2000 2004
    18      Shawon Dunston   92 1202 1990 2002
    19          Spike Owen   91  677 1990 1995
    20      Jose Hernandez   90 1418 1991 2004
    21         Ozzie Smith   90  790 1990 1996
    22          Julio Lugo   88  640 2000 2004
    23      David Eckstein   87  567 2001 2004
    24        Omar Vizquel   87 1995 1990 2004
    25     Orlando Cabrera   84  962 1997 2004
    26     Ricky Gutierrez   83 1119 1993 2004
    27        Mike Bordick   83 1720 1990 2003
    28        Kevin Elster   83  616 1990 2000
    29         Chris Gomez   81 1189 1993 2004
    30          Greg Gagne   81 1081 1990 1997
    31       Royce Clayton   79 1751 1991 2004
    32       Kevin Stocker   79  846 1993 2000
    33          Deivi Cruz   78 1133 1997 2004
    34       Alex Gonzalez   78 1267 1994 2004
    35      Andujar Cedeno   78  616 1990 1996
    36       Alex Gonzalez   77  766 1998 2004
    37          Walt Weiss   77 1248 1990 2000
    38      Kurt Stillwell   77  505 1990 1996
    39     Cristian Guzman   76  841 1999 2004
    40       Jose Vizcaino   76 1635 1990 2004
    41       Desi Relaford   75  852 1996 2004
    42         Jack Wilson   74  562 2001 2004
    43          Pat Meares   73  981 1993 2001
    44      Dick Schofield   70  541 1990 1996
    45         Rey Sanchez   69 1467 1991 2004
    46       Ozzie Guillen   69 1224 1990 2000
    47          Manuel Lee   69  552 1990 1995
    48         Pat Listach   68  503 1992 1997
    49        Felix Fermin   68  681 1990 1996
    50      Gary DiSarcina   66 1084 1990 2000
    51           Benji Gil   65  604 1993 2003
    52         Neifi Perez   64 1108 1996 2004
    53           Tim Bogar   64  701 1993 2001
    54     Alvaro Espinoza   64  723 1990 1997
    55         Rey Ordonez   59  973 1996 2004
    56        David Howard   57  645 1991 1999
    57     Rafael Belliard   42  717 1990 1998
    Last edited by dgarza; 12-15-2009, 08:46 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Second Base Coach
    replied
    To me, Barry Larkin is one of those HOF candidates who looks better while looking back on his career than (if we can remember) when he actually played.

    I think he snuck buy us as fans. The patron saint of this type of player is Chipper Jones (among active players). When Jones retires, and when fans look back on his stats, they will say... dang he really put up some numbers.

    Guys like this sometime have trouble getting into the HOF early on. Some make it, like Gary Carter, while others won't, like Tim Raines.

    I am talking about the average fan now. I am sure anyone who posts here might consider Chipper Jones to be a first ballot guy, who deserves all the honors of being one of the all-time greats. But to the casual fan (and perhaps the average HOF voter) it might take some convincing to elevate him that high.

    While it is not my favorite stat, Larkin had ten seasons of 118 OPS+ or better. That is pretty good hitting for a pretty good fielding shortstop.

    And he had zero bad years between the ages of 24 and 36.

    It might seem weird that a 12 time All-Star snuck by us, but I think he flew under the radar of the casual fan who was more impressed with the guys playing over in the American League at that time.

    I see him having a Jim Rice type of HOF assent. Getting in.... eventually.

    Leave a comment:


  • Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
    But if you (I) consider that half the SSs in the Hall were not as good as LArkin, then we have Larkin (and Dahlen and Trammell) as fitting your average/standard HOF SS.
    From a positional equivalent, it would be like leaving out Sisler.
    I tend to give much less weight to historical selections vis a vis peer (more recent) standards. Obviously, when compared to the average SS HOF selection, Larkin is undeniably deserving; Trammell too for that matter. But judging by the standards of most recent elite SS of the last 25 years, Larkin starts looking more 'borderline'. I always weight the latter line of reasoning more heavily in my analysis as standards continue to tighten throughout the years.

    If we start inducting every SS the way they used to 40+years ago when Rizzuto and Boudreau were elected, the Hall won't look very pretty. Larkin was obviously better than those two guys, but how does he stack up against recent contemporaries from the offensive era (1990-2004)? Maybe 4th or 5th best? Maybe that's good enough.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan View Post
    I wouldn't characterize it as a 'huge injustice' if Larkin isn't elected.
    I guess it depends on how you judge "injustice" here.

    Larkin was never the best SS during his days, but he was still a HOF quality player. A solid HOFer, but not an overwhelming one. There are other SS of his ilk not in the Hall (Bill Dahlen, Alan Trammell).

    But if you (I) consider that half the SSs in the Hall were not as good as LArkin, then we have Larkin (and Dahlen and Trammell) as fitting your average/standard HOF SS.
    From a positional equivalent, it would be like leaving out Sisler.

    Leave a comment:


  • Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan
    replied
    Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
    Larkin would be a huge HOF injustice if snubbed. That being said, he wasn't better than Ripken, and he wasn't better than Jeter. Injuries made the difference.
    I wouldn't characterize it as a 'huge injustice' if Larkin isn't elected. Larkin had the benefit of playing a large chunk of his career, mostly the first half, in a WEAK era for offensive shortstops in both leagues. Larkin was a fine player, but up against this backdrop he appeared better than he was. If he had entered the league post 1997 with the likes of Tejada, Jeter, Garciaparra & Rodriguez coming up, Larkin would have perpetually been thought of as the 3rd or 4th best SS in baseball. As such, only Ripken gave him any sort of consistent run on offensive prowess as Trammell was just about done when Larkin came up.

    I personally believe Larkin to be overrated, although he was a fine multi-dimensional player with a good glove. The injury thing though greatly diminishes his legacy as he only averaged about 116 games played per season. That's A LOT of playing time for the weak hitting utility guy, and was ultimately very detrimental to his teams causes. His counting stats for this era
    are not overwhelming by any stretch. I wouldn't have any problem seeing Larkin in the HOF although I would have no complaint whatsoever if he were omitted.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fuzzy Bear
    replied
    Originally posted by fan View Post
    I'm rooting for Barry, and I think most people who saw him a lot are, too. I remember for many years, I would go to the Reds games a few times a year, and it seemed every game Larkin would do something exceptional. I remember us Reds fans waiting for Ozzie Smith (who I also love) to decline or retire so Larkin could finally get his well deserved GG.

    Such a long career at SS and a .295 average? Power and speed, great glove, team captain, beloved in the city he spent his whole career in? Yes, he is deserving. Yes, he will eventually get in.

    I agree with a friend who said Larkin will get more 2010 votes than McGwire. I'd put 'em both in, Big Mac being automatic (500, 3000, 300 are magic numbers for me).
    Larkin would be a huge HOF injustice if snubbed. That being said, he wasn't better than Ripken, and he wasn't better than Jeter. Injuries made the difference.

    Leave a comment:


  • fan
    replied
    I'm rooting for Barry, and I think most people who saw him a lot are, too. I remember for many years, I would go to the Reds games a few times a year, and it seemed every game Larkin would do something exceptional. I remember us Reds fans waiting for Ozzie Smith (who I also love) to decline or retire so Larkin could finally get his well deserved GG.

    Such a long career at SS and a .295 average? Power and speed, great glove, team captain, beloved in the city he spent his whole career in? Yes, he is deserving. Yes, he will eventually get in.

    I agree with a friend who said Larkin will get more 2010 votes than McGwire. I'd put 'em both in, Big Mac being automatic (500, 3000, 300 are magic numbers for me).

    Leave a comment:


  • SABR Matt
    replied
    Hitting includes baserunning too, Mark. When you consider baserunning (there is a league average rate of production on the bases), Ripken was, in total, a below average hitter from 1992 through 2001 (only 1999 excluded). That's 9 below average offensive seasons compared to 11 above average seasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • leecemark
    replied
    Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
    I have Larkin ahead of CAL RIPKEN...despite 3000 fewer plate appearances.

    Ripken was better in his very best seasons, but Larkin held his peak performance WAY better than Ripken did...oh and Ripken spent nearly half his career as a noticeably below average bat and that was almost never true of Larkin.
    --For Ripken's first 10 years as an everyday SS (and in his case everyday is literal) he posted a 128 OPS+ and was never below average as a hitter. Not just for a SS for for anybody. He stayed at SS another 5 years and was slightly below average as a hitter, but still an above average hittign SS. He probably should have retired rather than move to 3b, as he was never above average after the move (well he had one very nice partial season), but I can't hold that against him. Larkin is a Hall of Famer in my book, but Ripken ranks significantly higher.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by Milt on Tilt View Post
    how does every conversation on here turn into a discussion about the Yankees/Bosox?
    Who knows.



    Barry Larkin is the subject matter. We've seen far too many threads hijacked of late. Please create a new thread if you *must* talk about a subject matter that has nothing to do with the present thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Milt on Tilt
    replied
    how does every conversation on here turn into a discussion about the Yankees/Bosox?

    Leave a comment:

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