Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Hall of Mistakes, Election #17

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Hall of Mistakes, Election #17

    The Hall of Fame is never going to identify its mistakes, so it’s up to us. This is the 17th in a series of polls to set up a new wing in the Coop. We want to isolate the players that don’t reach the HOF’s minimum standards, so that they will not be used as examples for arguing that a similar player deserves enshrinement. We’ll elect one mistake at a time. These are our first 16 dishonorees, by position:

    C - Rick Ferrell
    1B - George Kelly
    2B - none
    3B - Fred Lindstrom
    SS - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker
    LF - Chick Hafey
    CF - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
    RF - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs
    P - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt

    Over on the History forum they’re running polls using the MVP voting format, voting for 10 guys in rank order, with points assigned 12,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Let’s use that method. Your worst hall of fame player will be voted #1, the next worst #2, down to your 10th worst. The player with the most total points at the end of the poll (probably about a week) will hereafter be designated as a Mistake. We will follow with another thread to identify the next worst player, and so on. We’ll continue until we’ve voted out 15% of the Coop’s 213 players (32 guys; this could increase to 33 if at least four players from Black baseball are elected in 2006).

    Players classified by the HOF as Pioneers/Managers/Executives/Umpires (e.g., Candy Cummings) are not eligible for this election. However, be aware that the 17 Negro league players are included - they are fair game for labeling as Mistakes.

    We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, Tommy McCarthy is probably the worst player in the Hall stat-wise. However, he was elected as much for being an innovator, a pioneer and a winning player as he was for his production as a player.

    Or Hughie Jennings. He has one of the shortest playing careers in the Hall. However, he was also a successful manager in addition to being the central player on a team often cited as the best of the 19th century. Frank Chance has a similar profile.

    So, voters will have to decide how much weight to give non-playing accomplishments. It should be interesting, as voters will need to consider more than just stats.

    A couple threads in this forum suggest candidates for voting out. (Underlined players are still active candidates.) The “Upper/Lower Hall of Fame Vote” thread has my list of who I think are the worst 76 players in the Hall. The poll under “Veterans Committee Mistakes” has the 26 worst players being Haines, T.Jackson, Lindstrom, Chesbro, Combs, Marquard, L. Waner, R. Ferrell, Hafey, Youngs, Hooper, G.Kelly, Tinker, Bottomley, Evers, Bancroft, Schoendienst, Rizzuto, Schalk, Lazzeri, Kell, Manush, Bender, Hoyt, Beckley and Wilson. (That poll did not include McCarthy, Willis or Chance.) There is also some good discussion from last spring in the thread “Weak HOFers”. Finally, in the thread "5 Tier HOF (v. 2) - The Admirable & Borderline" from 2003, the bottom 25 were identified (alphabetically) as Bancroft, Bottomley, Bresnahan, Chance, Chesbro, Combs, Evers, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Hoyt, T.Jackson, G.Kelly, Lindstrom, Maranville, Marquard, Mazeroski, McCarthy, Pennock, Rizzuto, Schalk, Schoendienst, Tinker, L.Waner, and Youngs.

    With Lindstrom, Kelly, McCarthy, Marquard, Haines, Waner, T. Jackson, Ferrell, Youngs, Bender, Hafey, Pennock, Combs, Chesbro, Hoyt and Tinker no longer eligible, here's my list of the next ten to vote out:

    1.Schalk
    2.Kell G
    3.Bottomley
    4.Johnson J
    5.Willis
    6.Manush
    7.Hooper
    8.Bancroft
    9.Evers
    10.Mazeroski
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    1) Judy Johnson
    2) Vic Willis
    3) Jim Bottomley
    4) Phil Rizuuto
    5) Dave Bancroft
    6) Red Schoendiesnt
    7) Ray Schalk
    8) Harry Hooper
    9) Tony Perez
    10) Bill Mazeroski

    Comment


    • #3
      1.Judy Johnson
      2.Vic Willis
      3.Red Schoendienst
      4.Eppa Rixey
      5.Ray Schalk
      6.Heinie Manush
      7.George Kell
      8.Jim Bottomley
      9.Harry Hooper
      10.Dave Bancroft

      Comment


      • #4
        1. Schalk
        2. Schoendienst
        3. Fingers
        4. Perez, Tony
        5. Johnson, J.
        6. Bottomley
        7. Rizzuto
        8. Mazeroski
        9. Evers
        10. Bresnahan
        Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

        Comment


        • #5
          With the addition of the consensus ballot from last election, Schalk and Johnson are tied in points. Hopefully, someone else will cast a ballot before we close this round tomorrow.

          Here's that consensus ballot:
          1.Schalk
          2.Johnson J
          3.Schoendienst
          4.Willis
          5.Bottomley
          6.Kell
          7.Bancroft
          8.Perez
          9.Fingers
          10.Hooper
          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

          Comment


          • #6
            1.Ray Schalk
            2.Dave Bancroft
            3.Jim Bottomley
            4.Red Schoendienst
            5.Phil Rizzuto
            6.Rollie Fingers
            7.Harry Hooper
            8.Heinie Manush
            9.Vic Willis
            10.Tony Perez

            Comment


            • #7
              --FS, not sure exactly what the point of the consensus ballot is, but I am sure that the way to break the tie ought to be to remove it from the equation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by leecemark
                --FS, not sure exactly what the point of the consensus ballot is, but I am sure that the way to break the tie ought to be to remove it from the equation.
                That's probably how I would have solved the problem. However, for this vote the point is moot. Egautograph has never been for ousting Johnson, so it looks like Judy will wait another week or two.

                A consensus ballot has been included in the tally since election #11. The purpose is to lessen the impact of an eccentric or strategically-constructed ballot by reinforcing the established queue. With our small electorate, typically 5 voters, one ballot carries significant weight. IMO, this gives us a better result. There is a smoother ascension of candidates up the ballot from week to week, which I think is how it should be. YMMV.
                Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oh, and Mark, I appreciate your long-standing efforts to name Judy Johnson as one of the Coop's mistakes. He has crept up my ballot for the past nine elections, so I'm sure we'll get him.

                  While you're at it, maybe you want to ask the BBFHOF voters why they're getting close to electing him. He was named on 11 ballots this month, the fourth highest ranked Negro Leaguer in the balloting.
                  Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                  Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    --I can only assume that people are voting for him there because he is one of the last remaining Hall of Fame Negro Leaguers. That he is the only clear cut mistake in that group apparently has not occured to some voters. I've pointed it out before, but perhaps it needs to be addressed again before he achieves critical mass there. He was apparently an outstanding fielder, but he couldn't hit much. Kell was better and he isn't going to get a sniff at the BBFHoF. Johnson is comparable to contemporary major leaguer Willie Kamm - without the plate dicipline.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The reason Judy was elected to the Hall was because he himself was on the Negro League Committee. With the general public's lack of knowledge on Negro Leaguers, they could get away with inducting a guy like him without a complete outrage.

                      Johnson was similar to Oliver Marcelle but not as good in the field or with the bat. I support Marcelle for the Hall but not Johnson.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Results, Election #17

                        Condolences to glovemeister and clean Sox Ray Schalk, who becomes the 17th member of the Hall of Mistakes. He joins Fred Lindstrom, George Kelly, Tommy McCarthy, Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Lloyd Waner, Travis Jackson, Rick Ferrell, Ross Youngs, Chief Bender, Chick Hafey, Herb Pennock, Earle Combs, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt and Joe Tinker. Judy Johnson is the clear favorite for the next election.

                        Here are the full results for the 17th election:
                        Code:
                        Pts	1st	Bal	Top 10 Players
                        58	4	6	Ray Schalk
                        46	2	5	Judy Johnson
                        38	0	6	Jim Bottomley
                        37	0	5	Red Schoendienst
                        33	0	5	Vic Willis
                        23	0	5	Dave Bancroft
                        18	0	3	George Kell
                        17	0	3	Phil Rizzuto
                        15	0	3	Rollie Fingers
                        14	0	5	Harry Hooper
                        			the rest
                        13	0	4	Perez
                        13	0	3	Manush
                        7	0	1	Rixey
                        5	0	3	Mazeroski
                        4	0	2	Evers
                        1	0	1	Bresnahan
                        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Are we voting out Abbot and Costello too?
                          I AM ROSTERDAMUS!!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Androctus
                            Are we voting out Abbot and Costello too?
                            No. Players only. We did eliminate Who, What and Why in the play-in rounds.
                            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                            Comment

                            Ad Widget

                            Collapse
                            Working...
                            X