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Should the HoF induct minor leaguers?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ashburn1
    You can't possibly be serious. Anyway, I just addressed that point above.

    Just using your logic.


    Well, you've made my case for me. Even IF the Japanese leaguers are AAA quality (which, don't forget, is NOT major league quality), that doesn't make them HOF worthy.
    Yes, and the Negro leagues were double-A quality at best. The quality of the Japanese baseball is higher than the Negro Leagues. So let's kick out Gibson, Paiger, Charleston, Loyd out of the HOF. They played in the minor leagues!
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
      Yes, and the Negro leagues were double-A quality at best. The quality of the Japanese baseball is higher than the Negro Leagues. So let's kick out Gibson, Paiger, Charleston, Loyd out of the HOF. They played in the minor leagues!
      Negro Leagues and Japanese league are apples and oranges, you can't compare the two. Completely different circumstances.

      I'll ask you the same thing I asked SABRMatt (he didn't have an answer, maybe you will): I also have never seen any evidence that Japan has produced players the calibre of Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Satchel Paige or Cool Papa Bell. Is your contention that the Japanese league has produced players of that quality?
      "You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." - Bill Spaceman Lee

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Ashburn1
        You've got to be kidding. The bottom line is that the doors to mlb were never open to those Negro League players. They've been open to players from around the world for decades. Conditions in Japan may have prevented them from coming here, but mlb never would have prevented a worthy Japanese player from being signed. It's a simple matter of opportunity.
        That is historically false. After the Murakami fiasco in 1964 the major leagues were barred for trying to acquire Japanese players. The Dodgers tried to get Nagashima from the Yomuri Giants but werere buffed. Until Hideo Nono there was a defacto "ban" on Japanese. There was a defacto "ban" on Negro Leaguers though there was NEVER any written offical rules banning them from the majors.

        I also have never seen any evidence that Japan has produced players the calibre of Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Satchel Paige or Cool Papa Bell. Is your contention that the Japanese league has produced players of that quality?
        Then you need to go read Jim Albright's research on Japanese baseball. He makes a good argument for Japanese players. Ever hear of Sadaharu Oh? Ichiro? Shigeo Nagashima? Victor Starffin? Katsuya Nomura? Masaichi Keneda? Kazahisa Inao? Granted, Japan has never produced a Oscar Charleston type player as far as I know. Jim albright is much more knowledgeable in this area.

        http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...lbright15.html

        And please. Your inference of a politically correct motive behind my opinion is more than a little insulting.
        We are just curious why you are so adament in not allowing Japnese players into the HoF?
        Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 01-31-2006, 01:54 PM.
        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Ashburn1
          How come these laws didn't stop Masanori Murakami (click on ruthmaybonds' link above)?
          He was sent to the Giants to get some coaching and some experience as part of a cultural exchange I believe. It was never the intent of the Japanese baseball authorities for him to actually stay and play in the majors. As soon as hte Giants tried to take him away the Japanese baseball authorities had a major fit.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Ashburn1
            Negro Leagues and Japanese league are apples and oranges, you can't compare the two. Completely different circumstances.

            I'll ask you the same thing I asked SABRMatt (he didn't have an answer, maybe you will): I also have never seen any evidence that Japan has produced players the calibre of Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Satchel Paige or Cool Papa Bell. Is your contention that the Japanese league has produced players of that quality?
            We actually had a great discussion on this a while back.

            http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=29479

            The concensus is that while the top talent of the Negro Leagues was probably better the overall league strength was highly in Japan's favor.
            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

            Comment


            • #36
              I don't know much about the early years of minor league baseball, say before 1930. I know a bit about the old Baltimore Orioles of the 1920s (with Lefty Grove). Who were some of the great minor leaguers of the past?
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Ashburn1
                How come these laws didn't stop Masanori Murakami (click on ruthmaybonds' link above)?
                He was a trial candidate...the Giants wanted to keep him but Japanese baseball officials prevented it. It's a frustrating situation for fans of the Japanese league when apparently no one is aware of how bad relations between the MLB and the Nippon League really were.
                Last edited by SABR Matt; 01-31-2006, 01:11 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                  That is historically false. After the Murakami fiasco in 1964 the major leagues were barred for trying to acquire Japanese players. The Dodgers tried to get Nagashima from the Yomuri Giants but werere buffed. Until Hideo Nono there was a defacto "ban" on Japanese. There was a defacto "ban" on Negro Leaguers though there was NEVER any written offical rules banning them from the majors.
                  Was the ban implimented by mlb or by Japanese baseball? It makes a big difference to this whole discussion.

                  Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                  We are just curious why you are so adament in not allowing Japnese players into the HoF?
                  I'm not. I think that Ichiro, barring something ending his career prematurely, is a deserving future Hall of Famer. Any and all Japanese players that come over here and prove HOF worthy should and will be inducted. If you want to use the Negro Leagues as precedent to allow the greats of Japanese baseball, then fine. Allow in any great Japanese players from the same era. The list of who to consider won't be very long. Today, any Japanese player can come to North America and play major league baseball if they really want to, so even given the theory that today's league is as good or a little better than AAA, performance there alone is still not good enough to get serious HOF consideration.
                  "You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." - Bill Spaceman Lee

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ashburn1
                    That may be true, but it still does not mean that they are the equal of major league players.

                    Bottom line is they are simply not playing against the same level of competition as players in the majors do (and MLB IS an international league, it has the best players in the world). You can't compare their numbers to major league numbers, they just aren't the same thing.

                    I've got no prejudice against the old minors or the Japanese league, I just can't imagine how anyone could justify the idea of inducting players from those leagues into the HOF.
                    I contend Oh was easily in the top 100 players all time and probably in the top 50, based on the evidence of the stats of guys who hit in both the majors and his Central League in his time along with the observations of major league types who played against him/saw him play. Personally, I rank Oh 34th, about the fourth retired first baseman of all time, behind Gehrig, Foxx and Anson. Oh is close in rankings to Turkey Stearnes (27th), Josh Gibson (28th), and Smoky Joe Williams (31st). The two Negro Leaguers who are significantly higher than Stearnes IMO are Charleston (12th) and Paige (16th).
                    By the way, I rank Cool Papa about 151st--well within HOF range, but not as high as the myth would have him.

                    Several Japanese (4-5) pitchers led by Kaneda would join him in the top 100, and at least four position players would fit in between 101 and 150th place. In all, there are about 10 Japanese players who are in the top 150 players of all time. After that, we're getting into gray area candidates, and I'd rather see some other research on the topic before backing much more than that group of 10.

                    All these comparisons are based on the performances of players who played in both leagues.

                    As for Murakami, he was not regarded as anything special (it seems because in Japan, they were looking at him as a starter, and it seems he was better suited toward relief), and he was loaned by his Japanese team, the Hawks, to a SF Giants farm team. The Hawks figured he'd get a year of seasoning, and they'd bring him back the next year. That Giant farm team put him in a relief role, and he flourished, and within the year, he moved up to the big club. The Giants wanted to keep him as they were allowed to under the terms of the agreement--but the Hawks and Japanese baseball didn't want that, in large measure because they wanted to keep their players in Japan. A nasty little brouhaha erupted over all this, and eventually the resolution was Murakami would pitch one more year (1965) in the States and then he could choose where to play. He was put under significant pressure to come home, and he did so--only to be stuck back in the starter role he wasn't as good at. He did manage one good year as a starter, but otherwise, he really only showed something like the form he had in 64-65 when he went back to relieving. Of course, after that set of events, the Japanese weren't so eager to let their players come to the States for the experience for quite a few years.

                    Jim Albright
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                    • #40
                      In the end, I think it would be a better idea to have an actual International Baseball Hall of Fame as opposed to changing the basic idea of the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
                      "You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." - Bill Spaceman Lee

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Ashburn1
                        Was the ban implimented by mlb or by Japanese baseball? It makes a big difference to this whole discussion.
                        No it doesn't...it makes no damned difference whatsoever.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Ashburn1
                          In the end, I think it would be a better idea to have an actual International Baseball Hall of Fame as opposed to changing the basic idea of the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
                          Tht kind of detracts from Cooperstown's mission to portray itself as the place to honor the National Pasttime.
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Ashburn1
                            Was the ban implimented by mlb or by Japanese baseball? It makes a big difference to this whole discussion.
                            .
                            Both, actually. The majors weren't very interested before the sixties, largely due to prejudice and that Japan had produced a few great pitchers by then, but only a very few. The Japanese teams weren't willing to let them go, and the majors didn't push things. After the Murakami affair, the leagues signed a deal which in essence formalized the status quo before the affair--you respect our reserve clause, we'll respect yours. At the time, both leagues treated players as tied to them forever if they chose to play in the majors. Even after the major league interpretation of the reserve clause died an overdue death (it was horribly flawed from a legal standpoint), the Japanese continued to be able to interpret their reserve clause in the traditional manner--and the majors continued to honor that.

                            It wasn't until Nomo's agent figured out a flaw in the system--the terms of the standard Japanese contract allowed Nomo out of the deal by retiring in Japan--and then the terms of the agreement between the majors and Japan did not apply to him. He had quite a fight on his hands until the Japanese powers that be realized they'd been beaten, and then they folded to save face. It was a fine legal point that took 27 years for someone to figure out--in part because Nomo was exceptionally motivated to get out of Japan because he figured the way he was being used, his arm would soon give out and his career would be over. Even so, Nomo had to burn his bridges in Japan in order to come over, and if he had failed, he would have lost much more than face. I think only someone with the kind of motivation Nomo had would adopt such a risky course of action.

                            Certainly, until the major leagues lost their reserve clause in 1975, nobody had any reason to try it--the majors wouldn't have given in without a long legal fight which would likely have resulted in a Pyrrhic victory for the player--he'd win in the courts, but the years he'd have to spend away from the game during the legal fight would have irreparably damaged his playing career. Nomo's advisor was sharp enough to have nailed down that the majors wouldn't get in his way before Nomo's "retirement" in Japan. The Japanese leagues fought this point for a few more years before the Soriano case showed they couldn't unilaterally amend the deal like they thought they had, and finally the current system was born.

                            Jim Albright
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Ashburn1
                              Negro Leagues and Japanese league are apples and oranges, you can't compare the two. Completely different circumstances.

                              I'll ask you the same thing I asked SABRMatt (he didn't have an answer, maybe you will): I also have never seen any evidence that Japan has produced players the calibre of Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Satchel Paige or Cool Papa Bell. Is your contention that the Japanese league has produced players of that quality?
                              Of course we can compare them. Why can't we? Did you read Jim Albright's research? It's really good stuff.

                              By the way, cool avatar. Richie Asburn is one of my favorites, totally underrated center fielder.
                              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by SABR Matt
                                No it doesn't...it makes no damned difference whatsoever.
                                No need to get angry.

                                I think it does make a difference. You can't compare being banned by the majors to simply choosing not to come and play here. At any time Japan could have decided to let any of their players come over and play and they chose not to. The Negro League players were forced to remain in the minors, the Japanese players were not.
                                "You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." - Bill Spaceman Lee

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