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Thread for Discussion of AG2004's Keltner Lists

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  • #91
    Perez, Cepeda

    Perez and Cepeda are featured at Keltner Lists, page 3. See the second and third pages #52-53.

    from Tony Perez #52
    8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

    Perez has a black ink total of 0. That’s very bad. He has a gray ink total of 129 (136th overall). That would be fairly good, considering the majority of it came while he was still playing third. He’s at 40.7 in HOF Standards, which is good for 140th overall. That is around the borderline for position players.
    Perez played thirdbase only five seasons 1967-71. Earning the majority of his grey ink (for batting) during that time makes me wonder how the best three and all five of those seasons stand compare with the peak win shares ratings of thirdbasemen.

    from Orlando Cepeda #53
    Cepeda insisted on playing first base during his years in San Francisco. As McCovey came up with the Giants at the same time Cepeda did, this meant that the team platooned McCovey for a few seasons, then stuck him in the outfield, even though Cepeda would probably have been a better defensive outfielder than McCovey was. That hurt the team.

    CONCLUSION: Orlando Cepeda might have barely made my queue based on his numbers alone. However, his insistence on playing first may have cost the Giants a pennant in 1964. By putting McCovey on the bench more than he should have been, it forced them into a playoff for the 1962 pennant; the extra playoff games, in turn, could have cost the Giants the World Series (which the Yankees won in seven games). Cepeda deserves to be penalized for that.
    McCovey played in the field only at firstbase 1959-61 (259 games in all roles); mainly in the outfield 1962-64 (373 g, all roles); only at firstbase thereafter.

    Cepeda played only at first 1958 (147 g); about equally at outfield and first 1959-61 (210 g and 290 g); mainly at first 1962-64 (449 g).

    Al Dark managed the Giants 1961-64 so McCovey in the outfield seems at a glance to match his tenure. Cepeda played mainly as a pinch-hitter in 1965, and did not play at all between May 3 and Aug 18. Through May 3 he played five times as PH, twice at 1B. Those two games were Aug 30 and May 1, games 16 and 17 for the team. That daily log fits a preseason injury and also fits a decision by Al Dark's successor Herman Franks to play McCovey at first ahead of Cepeda. Which is the truth?

    Bill Rigney managed the Giants 1959-60, immediately preceding Dark. He put Cepeda in the outfield when both big men played, never McCovey in the outfield. This suggests that refusing to play the outfield is something Cepeda pulled on the new manager, and not before his first season. Perhaps it was something they negotiated during the 1961 season; Cepeda played at firstbase primarily during the second half.


    • #92
      Since this has been a very long thread containing several long posts and deep contexts, my question is simple:

      Why does Cecil Travis merit such a total lack of respect?


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