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Thread for Discussion of AG2004's Keltner Lists

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  • Thread for Discussion of AG2004's Keltner Lists

    The purpose of this thread is set forth in the title. Remember, AG2004 wants to keep the main thread as a reference thread, so please post requests or discussion of his thread over here. I will help him with this, and while I'd like to exhibit some patience here, if I see certain users repeatedly ignore this request, I suspect my patience with those users may grow thin.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    The first post to be moved is this one:

    Originally posted by brett
    Which of these guys makes the cut in your view. They are my all time eligible non HOFer team, (pr in the case of Walker and Martinez, probably nots).

    C: Torre
    1B: Allen
    2B: Grich
    SS: Dahlen
    3B: Santo
    LF: Raines
    CF: Jimmy Wynn
    RF: Larry Walker*


    Team 2:

    C: Freehan
    1B: Will Clark
    2B: Whitaker
    SS: Trammell
    3B: Edgar Martinez*
    OF: Dwight Evans
    OF: Fred Lynn
    OF: Bernie Williams*

    *probably nots who haven't been voted on yet.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #3
      --AG, great idea to put all your lists into a one stop shopping thread. I've found them very informative and you've swayed me (both for and against) several players. Its getting harder to sort out all the borderline guys we have to consider now.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by AG2004 View Post
        4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

        No. Cleveland rarely contended during his years with the team, and he didn’t reach 20 win shares during any of his seasons with the Yankees.
        Hey AG, I am thoroughly enjoying the new thread and the work you are putting into it.

        I do have a minor disagreement with you on Joe Sewell. Granted Mr. Sewell did not have an impact on a large number of pennant races, but he did have an impact on the 1920 World Series. He came up from the minor leagues and greatly assisted the Indians after the death of Ray Chapman. He hit .322 with a .413 OBP in 22 games in 1920 from the most important position on the field. He also made the final out of the World Series. I am not sure that the Indians would have been World Champs in 1920 if not for the gentleman from Alabama.

        Also, a .312 Batting average and a .391 OBP over 1903 games is pretty good for a shortstop. He also did all the little things that help teams win ballgames. Mr. Sewell's career is a bit short for a Hall of Famer, but I still feel that he belongs for what he accomplished in those 1903 games.

        Charles
        Last edited by cbenson5; 07-02-2007, 06:47 PM.
        "I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him. He was the greatest all time ballplayer. That guy was superhuman, amazing."
        -Casey Stengel

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by cbenson5 View Post
          Hey AG, I am thoroughly enjoying the new thread and the work you are putting into it.

          I do have a minor disagreement with you on Joe Sewell. Granted Mr. Sewell did not have an impact on a large number of pennant races, but he did have an impact on the 1920 World Series. He came up from the minor leagues and greatly assisted the Indians after the death of Ray Chapman. He hit .322 with a .413 OBP in 22 games in 1920 from the most important position on the field. He also made the final out of the World Series. I am not sure that the Indians would have been World Champs in 1920 if not for the gentleman from Alabama.

          Also, a .312 Batting average and a .391 OBP over 1903 games is pretty good for a shortstop. He also did all the little things that help teams win ballgames. Mr. Sewell's career is a bit short for a Hall of Famer, but I still feel that he belongs for what he accomplished in those 1903 games.

          Charles
          Charles,

          Thank you for your comments on the 1920 pennant race and Sewell's World Series performance. I will mention them when I edit my list in the next few days.

          Regarding Sewell's batting average and OBP, it should be remembered that the 1920s tended to favor hitters over pitchers, and Cleveland's League Park was a hitter's park. The average hitter, playing in the AL during Sewell's time, and playing in the parks Sewell did, would have had a batting average of .292 and an OBP of .360. Sewell's numbers aren't as impressive once you take his context into account.

          Sabermetricians have come up with tools to help compare players across eras. I find Bill James' win shares to be particularly helpful. Also, Chris Cobb and "Dr. Chaleeko" at baseball think factory have done helpful work in comparing Negro Leaguers to their Major League counterparts.

          I look at both career and peak when evaluating players. In my judgment, Sewell is comparable to fellow shortstops Maury Wills, Vern Stephens, and Artie Wilson in both career and peak value, and it's difficult to separate those four players from each other. Either all four of them deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, or none of them do. If all of them are deserving, by the time I add all the players who are better than them, the Hall of Fame would be too large. Thus, I see Sewell as close to being Hall-worthy, but I don't see him as making it.

          As Sewell's career was short, he would need to have a better player at his best than he actually was in order to make up for it. Dobie Moore, like Sewell, had a short career. However, Moore was much better at his best than Sewell was, and that's why I see Moore as being worthy of Hall of Fame honors.

          In the end, Sewell is like many other players. If there were a Hall of Very Good, Sewell would belong in it. But I see him as being almost good enough for the Hall of Fame (or the Baseball Fever Hall of Fame), but not quite as good as he would need to be to belong.

          Comment


          • #6
            Also, Charles and leecemark, thank you for your appreciation.

            Comment


            • #7
              You know I like the work you've done on these (why else would I have adopted so many in my own thread?), and I've hoped to see you collect them like this. I've stickied the thread, as it is a valuable addition to our forum.

              Jim Albright
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                whats a keltner list?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by fenrir View Post
                  whats a keltner list?
                  AG gives an explanation of the Keltner List in the second post of his thread:

                  http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63886

                  Charles
                  "I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him. He was the greatest all time ballplayer. That guy was superhuman, amazing."
                  -Casey Stengel

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    thanks bro.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I would suspect someone at sometime has actually done one on Ken Keltner, no doubt thats where it originated, whether it was by Bill James or whether he came across one done for Keltner by a fan or supporter of Keltner's HOF candidacy. I dont recall ever actually having seen one posted anywhere on the Fever for the man himself, Ken Keltner. I am a lifer Tribe fan, and feel that for career value Keltner is surely one of our best 3rd basemen ever, with Bill Bradley and Al Rosen being "way up there" too. I am wondering if perhaps AG2004 might do one for Ken Keltner sometime soon. I believe that KK was chosen as the Tribe's all time 3rd sacker on the 1969 All Time Tribe team selected for the Centennial of Professional Baseball. I also recall him as being in the Tribe HOF when there actually physically WAS one. (It was located on the main concourse at the Cleveland Municipal Stadium for many years, then was *discontinued!* A travesty. It's *definitely* something that should be revived by present day Tribe management, if it hasnt been already. I have not been a Cleveland resident for many years.) I dont necessarily feel that KK had the type of career that warrants selection to Cooperstown, but would still love to see him evaluated by "his" list here. (He could be one of those rare players to get a "yes" on the invention question, if you give him some personal credit for at least inspiring the Keltner List, lol.)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Calif_Eagle View Post
                        I would suspect someone at sometime has actually done one on Ken Keltner, no doubt thats where it originated, whether it was by Bill James or whether he came across one done for Keltner by a fan or supporter of Keltner's HOF candidacy. I dont recall ever actually having seen one posted anywhere on the Fever for the man himself, Ken Keltner. I am a lifer Tribe fan, and feel that for career value Keltner is surely one of our best 3rd basemen ever, with Bill Bradley and Al Rosen being "way up there" too. I am wondering if perhaps AG2004 might do one for Ken Keltner sometime soon. I believe that KK was chosen as the Tribe's all time 3rd sacker on the 1969 All Time Tribe team selected for the Centennial of Professional Baseball. I also recall him as being in the Tribe HOF when there actually physically WAS one. (It was located on the main concourse at the Cleveland Municipal Stadium for many years, then was *discontinued!* A travesty. It's *definitely* something that should be revived by present day Tribe management, if it hasnt been already. I have not been a Cleveland resident for many years.)
                        They finally put Heritage Park in Jacobs Field. Of course they screwed up Eckersley's paver (22 straight SCORELESS innings instead of NO-HIT innings) but I e-mailed Bob DiBiasio about it, he said they would fix it
                        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Another moved post:

                          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                          AG2004,

                          I think I speak for everyone here at BBF that we appreciate your hard work and passion in putting together this thread. By the way can you do a Jeff Kent Keltner list?
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You did a nice post on Perucho Cepeda (see my musings thread #75) which I beleive merits inclusion, assuming you don't do a list for him.

                            Jim Albright
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I haven't done much updating on the Keltner Lists themselves yet, but I hope to do some of the work over the next week or so.

                              *Honus Wagner Rules - Jeff Kent is still active, so I don't see much point in doing a list for him now. He meets most of the standards I have for the HOF, though.

                              *Calif_Eagle - You are right; the original list was done by Bill James for Ken Keltner, and appears in his 1985 Baseball Abstract. I was planning to have a Keltner List for Ken Keltner as post #100 in my thread.

                              *Brett - Here's my quick evaluation of how the players you mention stack up.

                              I would place the following in the HOF: Torre, Allen, Grich, Dahlen, Santo, Raines, Wynn, Freehan, Clark, Whitaker, Trammell, Evans

                              I would place the leave the following out: Walker, Martinez, Lynn

                              Bernie Williams has not officially retired yet; from a quick check of his records, I would put him in my gray area.

                              Comment

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