Al Oliver - Hall of Famer?

[NOMAR22]

Yeah, I'll give ya that. He gave enough to the game that he deserved to at least be given the respect that many lesser players have been shown. And I'll be next in line to boycott if Grace gets in just because people seem to like him better. Just exactly who did Oliver spit on to deserve lesser treatment than Grace, who is probably a lesser player based on career achievements? Perhaps it was just the markets he played in, but sports writers cover all markets, so that shouldn't be an excuse, unless they knew that people wouldn't notice their lack of respect to a player in those markets. I guess we just don't know how much what the general public thinks and supposedly knows affects their voting. If they knew he would never get in and knew there would be no great cry of outrage, then perhaps they decided to just get it over with quickly instead of having to keep it up for 20 years. But here's to you, Oliver. You had a very good career, and probably had the potential to be a HoFer had you been in the right place. CHEERS!

Mark Grace is in no way a HOF. Al Oliver was better.

AVG. G AB R H 2B 3B HRS RBI OBP SLG
AL Oliver.303 2,368 9,049 1,189 2,743 529 77 219 1,326 .344 .451
M.Grace .303 2,245 8,065 1,179 2,445 511 45 173 1,146 .383 .442

Al Oliver 5 times 90 or more runs ,0-100 or more runs 2 200 hits season,
8 times over 180 hits,2 100 rbi season,8 times 80 rbi season,2 times hit 20 or more hrs,11 times batted .300 over season,5 times hit over.320 season,lead league 1982 hits,rbis,avg,mvp season.

Mark Grace 3 times 90 or more runs,1 time 100 runs,0 200-hits season, 7 times 180 hits season,0 times 100 rbis season,6 times 80 rbi season,0-times hit 20 more hrs,9 times batted over.300,3 times batted over.320 season ,never lead the league in hits,rbis or avg.only in 2b.

[Tigerfan1974]

'Fraid not, Sorry Al!

[dgarza]

I'd like to add that, even though he was not flashy or a stand out, Al Oliver was a 7 time All-Star. He won Silver Slugger at 3 different "positions". How many players have done that?

[dgarza]

My general HOF queue for CFers (not exactly sure were I draw the line):

Pete Browning
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy
Al Oliver
George Van Haltren
Jimmy Ryan
Lip Pike
George Gore
Vada Pinson
Mike Donlin
Wally Berger
Ginger Beaumont
Fred Lynn

[cavalier1968]

not even the best player on his team

Buddy Bell was....the best defensive 3b I ever saw.....


Cav

[Fuzzy Bear]

Oliver has one of the most oddly truncated careers of any player to have a realistic HOF case. He started out as a first baseman, then moved RIGHTWARD on the defensive spectrum to CENTER field. That's a pretty odd shift, dontcha think? Center field requires the kind of skills that one usually doesn't find in a first baseman (speed, throwing arm). Oliver played more games at CF than any other position; he divided the rest of his career between LF and 1B. He never won a Gold Glove at any of these positions, but he was never considered to be a defensive liability, either.

There are many things said about Oliver that aren't true. People say he played on teams that didn't win, but every team but one of Oliver's won more games than they lost. He played on 4 division champs, one of which went all the way (1971). He was traded to Texas, and they never went to the playoffs, but all of Oliver's Texas teams but one posted winning records. At the end of his career with the Expos, those teams posted winning records as well.

Oliver's ultimate problem was that he didn't walk enough to compensate for losing his ability to put the bat on the ball. This was why his career declined fast; he lost the ability to get a hit, and he wasn't patient enough to keep the pitcher honest. This kept him from being more effective than he could have been; despite his BA, his OWP was .599, which is kind of low for a guy with a .300 BA in a long career. He's the kind of guy that would have been in the HOF had he made it to 3,000 hits. Here's the problem: Oliver was 257 hits away from the 3K mark at age 38. To hang in there, he would have had to have been more disciplined at the plate, but to have been more disciplined at the plate would have meant that Oliver was a better player then what he actually was. He's borderline, and he deserved more respect then he got. I'm not convinced he deserves the HOF, but I won't be bent out of shape if he ever gets there.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Al Oliver was a very good player. I don't endorse him for the HOF, but he's certainly one of the best one-and-done candidates of all-time. Speaking of which, to those of you who think he received unfair treatment as compared to Mark Grace, Grace has since gotten the one-and-done treatment as well. To those of you who compare him to Kirby Puckett, I think you have a reasonable point. Through age 35 (the age at which Puckett retired), the two have a similarity score of 923. This is appropriate in that they were truly similar players - center fielders who primarily hit for average, didn't walk much, and had reasonable, though not great, power. There are, however, some differences between them that shed light on why Puckett sailed into the HOF and Oliver never got serious consideration:

1. What they each did after age 35 was night and day different. A freak vision problem forced Puckett into a highly publicized early retirement while he was still on top of his game. Though it will remain a mystery how Puckett's decline phase would've gone, he gets remembered as the .314 hitter with 99 RBIs that he went out as. He is seen as a guy who could've reached 3,000 hits. Oliver, on the other hand, did precious little to help his cause after his big 1982 season at age 35. If I'm not mistaken, he never officially retired, but was forced out after simply going unsigned. That type of exit usually goes unnoticed. He is seen as a guy who tried for 3,000 hits and fell short.

2. Puckett was a bigger star and was perceived as a better player. I think he gets bonus points on his HOF resume from the voters for his popularity and reputation. He was literally a perennial All-Star, and was the biggest star on the World Champion Twins. Oliver, on the other hand, was a more occasional All-Star, and was merely a supporting cast member on the '71 Bucs.

Fair or not, I think that largely explains the difference in how each has been treated by the BBWAA. I brought up Al Oliver in a Dave Parker thread recently because I think he has almost as good of a HOF case as Parker, who is a serious candidate himself. I still say no to Oliver, but he's much closer than his reputation would suggest.

[henrich]

I love Al Oliver and I support his case for the HOF.

For the H-factor comparison

Name Pos H-Factor
Puckett CF 10,113
Oliver CF 10,157 I think the previous post explains why he didn't make it.
Parker RF 12,494 Off field issues?
Grace 1B 8985 wrong side of the gray area.

I think Oliver and Parker deserve enshrinement and Grace does not. Puckett barely gets in...and so should Oliver, though by the writer's votes one wouldn't know that

[rsuriyop]

Although I wouldn't endorse Oliver's selection into the HOF, I also wouldn't mind all that much should he ever make it in. To me, he's as much a borderline candidate as anyone. I do think, however, that there are better CFer's out there who are more worthy and probably at least as unappreciated as Oliver ever was if not more so. Reggie Smith and Jimmy Wynn are two names that come immediately to mind as they were both direct contemporaries of his. The former seemed to have virtually no weaknesses whatsoever and the latter was a power hitter who drew tons of walks.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Although I wouldn't endorse Oliver's selection into the HOF, I also wouldn't mind all that much should he ever make it in. To me, he's as much a borderline candidate as anyone. I do think, however, that there are better CFer's out there who are more worthy and probably at least as unappreciated as Oliver ever was if not more so. Reggie Smith and Jimmy Wynn are two names that come immediately to mind as they were both direct contemporaries of his. The former seemed to have virtually no weaknesses whatsoever and the latter was a power hitter who drew tons of walks.

I agree that Reggie Smith was better than Oliver; I'm not sure about Wynn, but I can be persuaded.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Although I wouldn't endorse Oliver's selection into the HOF, I also wouldn't mind all that much should he ever make it in. To me, he's as much a borderline candidate as anyone. I do think, however, that there are better CFer's out there who are more worthy and probably at least as unappreciated as Oliver ever was if not more so. Reggie Smith and Jimmy Wynn are two names that come immediately to mind as they were both direct contemporaries of his. The former seemed to have virtually no weaknesses whatsoever and the latter was a power hitter who drew tons of walks.

Reggie Smith was an awesome player who, for some reason, has become relatively obscure since retiring. At his best, he was a better player than Oliver, but I'm not so sure that he has a better HOF case. Oliver played significantly longer, did better in MVP voting, and has better black/grey ink, HOF standards/monitor scores across the board. He also came much closer to 3,000 hits than Smith did to any significant career milestone. Furthermore, as you said, Reggie Smith had great all-around skills, but he wasn't overwhelming at any one thing. It isn't necessarily fair, but guys of that breed don't usually fare well in HOF voting unless they play forever.

I'm not convinced that, at his best, Jimmy Wynn was much better than Al Oliver. His HOF case is, without question, vastly inferior to Oliver's. He did have skills that were underappreciated in his time, and he's significant to the sabermetric community in that sense, but an outfielder primarily known for his power with under 300 homers and under 1,000 RBIs has no chance at the HOF.

[Mike90]

Reggie Smith was an awesome player who, for some reason, has become relatively obscure since retiring. At his best, he was a better player than Oliver, but I'm not so sure that he has a better HOF case. Oliver played significantly longer, did better in MVP voting, and has better black/grey ink, HOF standards/monitor scores across the board. He also came much closer to 3,000 hits than Smith did to any significant career milestone. Furthermore, as you said, Reggie Smith had great all-around skills, but he wasn't overwhelming at any one thing. It isn't necessarily fair, but guys of that breed don't usually fare well in HOF voting unless they play forever.

I agree with all of this. I think Oliver has the easier argument to make for being a hall of famer because has more of the things that voters look at, a batting average above .300, over 2700 hits, and a batting title and RBI title. Smith was the better player though. Oliver has the higher BA easily -- .303 to .287 -- but Smith beats Oliver in the more important stats of OBP -- .366 to .344 -- and Slugging -- .489 to .451. Oliver's career was longer, but I think Smith has a pretty clear edge over him unless a lot of weight is given to batting average.

His OBP was only 15 points better than average, and he doesn't have anything really special to make up for that: no huge peak or incredibly long career, good but not great power, and he was never considered a great defender. Oliver was a pretty terrific player IMO though, better than a few players already in the Hall.

I'm not convinced that, at his best, Jimmy Wynn was much better than Al Oliver. His HOF case is, without question, vastly inferior to Oliver's. He did have skills that were underappreciated in his time, and he's significant to the sabermetric community in that sense, but an outfielder primarily known for his power with under 300 homers and under 1,000 RBIs has no chance at the HOF.

Bill James named Darrell Evans the most underrated player ever in his 2002 abstract, but I think Wynn probably deserves that title. He averaged 103 walks per 162 games, something that's usually not appreciated by the public, and only 89 singles leading to a .250 BA. He played in a pitchers' era in pitchers' parks for his entire career. Borderline centerfielders tend to get underrated because their position is expected to be a mixture of offense and defense (rather than just offense for a left fielder or mainly defense for catchers).

Wynn had five seasons with an OWP better than .700 with his high being .799 in 1969 when he was only 15th in the MVP voting because he batted .269. Add in his work as an outfielder, usually as a centerfielder, and he was clearly a great player in his prime. Maybe he doesn't deserve the Hall because his career was so short -- as Fuzzy pointed out he has less than 300 home runs and 1000 RBI for his career, not great totals for a power hitter in any era. I support him though (not that he has a chance of getting inducted).

[curveball]

I agree with all of this. I think Oliver has the easier argument to make for being a hall of famer because has more of the things that voters look at, a batting average above .300, over 2700 hits, and a batting title and RBI title. Smith was the better player though. Oliver has the higher BA easily -- .303 to .287 -- but Smith beats Oliver in the more important stats of OBP -- .366 to .344 -- and Slugging -- .489 to .451. Oliver's career was longer, but I think Smith has a pretty clear edge over him unless a lot of weight is given to batting average.

His OBP was only 15 points better than average, and he doesn't have anything really special to make up for that: no huge peak or incredibly long career, good but not great power, and he was never considered a great defender. Oliver was a pretty terrific player IMO though, better than a few players already in the Hall.



Bill James named Darrell Evans the most underrated player ever in his 2002 abstract, but I think Wynn probably deserves that title. He averaged 103 walks per 162 games, something that's usually not appreciated by the public, and only 89 singles leading to a .250 BA. He played in a pitchers' era in pitchers' parks for his entire career. Borderline centerfielders tend to get underrated because their position is expected to be a mixture of offense and defense (rather than just offense for a left fielder or mainly defense for catchers).

Wynn had five seasons with an OWP better than .700 with his high being .799 in 1969 when he was only 15th in the MVP voting because he batted .269. Add in his work as an outfielder, usually as a centerfielder, and he was clearly a great player in his prime. Maybe he doesn't deserve the Hall because his career was so short -- as Fuzzy pointed out he has less than 300 home runs and 1000 RBI for his career, not great totals for a power hitter in any era. I support him though (not that he has a chance of getting inducted).

Jimmy Wynn is .250 .366 .436, but jumps to .274 .394 .477 when neutralized, so that definitely lends credence to your point about him playing in a pitcher's era in pitchers' parks. He actually looks pretty good, and that OWP of .651 isn't too shabby. I think the problem is that he only had 6653 at bats for his whole career.

Reggie Smith is .287 .366 .489, and .296 .376 .504 neutralized. His *OPS+ is 137 which is very good, and his OWP is 693. He only has 7033 at bats, and that is probably holding him back.

How did Jim Rice and his *OPS+ of 128, and OWP of .627, while clearly benefiting from playing in Fenway Park get into the HoF again?

[KHenry14]

Ironic story about Scoop Oliver. He came to the Giants in 1984 with high hopes. The Giants flagship radio station had a promo that year if a certain player that year hit a HR in a selected inning a fan would win a big prize. Well, the station picked Al as the player that season who would be the player who would need to hit a HR in the selected inning. Problem is, by that time in his career Al was basically an opposite field hitter, and during the half season with the Giants that year he hit a grand total of ZERO HR's h Needless to say the promo wasn't exactly a huge success that year!

[henrich]

For reference point

CF Wynn 7865
RF Reggie Smith 9426
CF Al Oliver 10,157
LF Jim Rice 11,347

As someone just accurately stated, I believe Oliver to be the epitome of a borderline candidate. Smith is just under and Wynn doesn't make it, without adjustments as noted previously.