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Al Oliver - Hall of Famer?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Philly-brownsfan View Post
    I clearly remember the deciding game of the 1985 playoffs between Kansas City and Toronto. Oliver started at DH or 1B but then in about the fifth inning when KC brought in a lefty pitcher Oliver was taken out of the lineup by Blue Jays manager, Bobby Cox in favor of a righty hitter. With the playoffs on the line and the chance to go into the World Series, instead of just keeping quiet and accepting the move, Oliver picked that moment to have a swearing, screaming meltdown.
    This occured one or two days after Oliver's 39th birthday, and although he had a relatively good year and the fact that he was only three years removed from a National League batting title....at that point Oliver's career was over. He never played in another MLB game.
    No owner wanted to employ him again and give him a chance to get the 240 some hits he needed to reach 3,000, with that kind of deportment and
    me-first attitude. He was really the antithesis of a good team player in that instance (and probably at other less dramatic times in his career). When a player puts his personal situation over that of his team when it's in a do or die game, then there's something wrong with that player. Possibly in part because of the distraction Oliver created, Toronto went on to lose that game and that ALCS.
    With 2757 hits, a .303 average and around 250 home runs, statistically Oliver would appear to have some decent Hall Of Fame qualifications, but on a personal level, Oliver isn't even close to making the Hall and never was.
    Any other instances of this? He had one breakdown. So many players have. That's not enough to condemn him.

    Oliver is one of the nicest ex-players I have met. He currently does motivational speaking.
    Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
    Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
    Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
      Any other instances of this? He had one breakdown. So many players have. That's not enough to condemn him.

      Oliver is one of the nicest ex-players I have met. He currently does motivational speaking.
      He might have had other "breakdowns' that went largely unnoticed nationally. His timing was terrible during the '85 playoffs, however, at a highly visible point with a national audience. It was the GMs and owners of the time who condemned him. They never forgot the playoffs incident and as a result Oliver was unable to continue his playing career.

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      • #63
        I suspect the public hissy fit on national tv was unhelpful, but not as unhelpful as the fact that Oliver was coming off a subpar season at age 38 (.252/.282/.374) and really couldn't play a position on the field anymore.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Cougar View Post
          I suspect the public hissy fit on national tv was unhelpful, but not as unhelpful as the fact that Oliver was coming off a sub par season at age 38 (.252/.282/.374) and really couldn't play a position on the field anymore.
          Right. He was pretty much done. There were better and cheaper options. In that time period, he simply had nowhere else to go. The meltdown wasn't his downfall.
          Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
          Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
          Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
          Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
          Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

          Comment


          • #65
            The owners collusion didn't help him either.Of the free agents for 85-86 only 4 signed with new teams.
            Last edited by Reds5; 11-09-2009, 05:40 AM.

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            • #66
              He'd get my vote, but he's also one of my top 10 favorite players of all-time, so there's a slight bias there. Great offensive performer, but he didn't stand out in the postseason, and was probably just an average center-fielder.
              Last edited by RyanExpress30; 11-09-2009, 07:52 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Brad Harris View Post
                Most Career Runs Created, 1961-1999, by position

                C - Carlton Fisk (1,362 RC)
                1B - Pete Rose (2,205 RC)
                2B - Joe Morgan (1,804 RC)
                SS - Robin Yount (1,644 RC)
                3B - George Brett (1,869 RC)
                LF - Carl Yastrzemski (2,127 RC)
                CF - Al Oliver (1,341 RC)
                RF - Dave Winfield (1,796 RC)
                DH - Paul Molitor (1,869 RC)

                Now...dare I be premature in suggesting that, once eligible, Molitor and Rose will both be elected, leaving Oliver as the only player on this list who isn't in the Hall of Fame.
                Although a good number of those were accumulated as a first baseman/DH.

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                • #68
                  If hitting the ball hard consistently make you a HOF, Oliver's Babe Ruth.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Brad Harris View Post
                    Most Career Runs Created, 1961-1999, by position

                    C - Carlton Fisk (1,362 RC)
                    1B - Pete Rose (2,205 RC)
                    2B - Joe Morgan (1,804 RC)
                    SS - Robin Yount (1,644 RC)
                    3B - George Brett (1,869 RC)
                    LF - Carl Yastrzemski (2,127 RC)
                    CF - Al Oliver (1,341 RC)
                    RF - Dave Winfield (1,796 RC)
                    DH - Paul Molitor (1,869 RC)

                    Now...dare I be premature in suggesting that, once eligible, Molitor and Rose will both be elected, leaving Oliver as the only player on this list who isn't in the Hall of Fame.

                    Oops, gotta throw a flag on this one, manipulating stats.... come on you know better than this...

                    The 1,341 RC is the lowest of the group, and you would have to choose the position of CF in order for him to even make this kind of list.

                    Once a player starts moving all over the diamond defensively, one has to regard him as a player, or as a batter in a very general sense rather than cherry picking the position in which he looks the best.

                    For example: if I was out to stick it to the Joe Morgan fans, I could have posted the same list and bumped Morgan in favor of Molitor. Or if I wanted a different first baseman on the list, I could have moved him in and put Rose in the outfield, where in fact he played a ton of games (more there than at first I believe).

                    And when I ran the same search over at Baseball Reference, it found someone with 1655 Runs Created in that time span from a player who played at least 40% of his games in Center Field. It ain't Junior, as I checked him in at 1279 using a calculator. It ain't Willie Mays, who had 1292.

                    It's Robin Yount. Is that why you put him at short, out of convenience?

                    Personal Foul, roughing the statistics...

                    You would have kept your street cred if you would have stated this... during his years as a regular (1969-1984) Al Oliver ranked 6th in Runs Created in all of Baseball.
                    Last edited by Second Base Coach; 12-31-2009, 01:13 AM.
                    Your Second Base Coach
                    Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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                    • #70
                      Al Oliver - Scoop

                      Seasons - 18
                      Hits - 2743
                      2B - 529
                      BA - .303
                      Obp. - .344
                      Slg. .451
                      OPS+ 121
                      AS Games -7
                      Silver Sluggers - 3

                      This guy's been bugging me a lot. Does he deserve the Hall?
                      "The first draft of anything is crap." - Ernest Hemingway

                      There's no such thing as an ultimate stat.

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                      • #71
                        Merged with previous thread on Oliver.
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                        • #72
                          No, I'll pass on Oliver. He doesn't strike me as one. Now just assuming, had he stuck around to get 3000 hits, his BA would have certainly fell and his on-base as well. So whichever way it stands he misses either mark. If he had both marks, 3K hits and 300 BA, I likely would still have passed on him, I would of liked to have seen him have many more stolen bases which were abundant in that era.

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