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Al Oliver - Hall of Famer?

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  • Biofury
    replied
    No, I'll pass on Oliver. He doesn't strike me as one. Now just assuming, had he stuck around to get 3000 hits, his BA would have certainly fell and his on-base as well. So whichever way it stands he misses either mark. If he had both marks, 3K hits and 300 BA, I likely would still have passed on him, I would of liked to have seen him have many more stolen bases which were abundant in that era.

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  • jalbright
    replied
    Merged with previous thread on Oliver.

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  • 1905 Giants
    replied
    Al Oliver - Scoop

    Seasons - 18
    Hits - 2743
    2B - 529
    BA - .303
    Obp. - .344
    Slg. .451
    OPS+ 121
    AS Games -7
    Silver Sluggers - 3

    This guy's been bugging me a lot. Does he deserve the Hall?

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  • Second Base Coach
    replied
    Originally posted by Brad Harris View Post
    Most Career Runs Created, 1961-1999, by position

    C - Carlton Fisk (1,362 RC)
    1B - Pete Rose (2,205 RC)
    2B - Joe Morgan (1,804 RC)
    SS - Robin Yount (1,644 RC)
    3B - George Brett (1,869 RC)
    LF - Carl Yastrzemski (2,127 RC)
    CF - Al Oliver (1,341 RC)
    RF - Dave Winfield (1,796 RC)
    DH - Paul Molitor (1,869 RC)

    Now...dare I be premature in suggesting that, once eligible, Molitor and Rose will both be elected, leaving Oliver as the only player on this list who isn't in the Hall of Fame.

    Oops, gotta throw a flag on this one, manipulating stats.... come on you know better than this...

    The 1,341 RC is the lowest of the group, and you would have to choose the position of CF in order for him to even make this kind of list.

    Once a player starts moving all over the diamond defensively, one has to regard him as a player, or as a batter in a very general sense rather than cherry picking the position in which he looks the best.

    For example: if I was out to stick it to the Joe Morgan fans, I could have posted the same list and bumped Morgan in favor of Molitor. Or if I wanted a different first baseman on the list, I could have moved him in and put Rose in the outfield, where in fact he played a ton of games (more there than at first I believe).

    And when I ran the same search over at Baseball Reference, it found someone with 1655 Runs Created in that time span from a player who played at least 40% of his games in Center Field. It ain't Junior, as I checked him in at 1279 using a calculator. It ain't Willie Mays, who had 1292.

    It's Robin Yount. Is that why you put him at short, out of convenience?

    Personal Foul, roughing the statistics...

    You would have kept your street cred if you would have stated this... during his years as a regular (1969-1984) Al Oliver ranked 6th in Runs Created in all of Baseball.
    Last edited by Second Base Coach; 12-31-2009, 01:13 AM.

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  • penneyAA
    replied
    If hitting the ball hard consistently make you a HOF, Oliver's Babe Ruth.

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  • penneyAA
    replied
    Originally posted by Brad Harris View Post
    Most Career Runs Created, 1961-1999, by position

    C - Carlton Fisk (1,362 RC)
    1B - Pete Rose (2,205 RC)
    2B - Joe Morgan (1,804 RC)
    SS - Robin Yount (1,644 RC)
    3B - George Brett (1,869 RC)
    LF - Carl Yastrzemski (2,127 RC)
    CF - Al Oliver (1,341 RC)
    RF - Dave Winfield (1,796 RC)
    DH - Paul Molitor (1,869 RC)

    Now...dare I be premature in suggesting that, once eligible, Molitor and Rose will both be elected, leaving Oliver as the only player on this list who isn't in the Hall of Fame.
    Although a good number of those were accumulated as a first baseman/DH.

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  • RyanExpress30
    replied
    He'd get my vote, but he's also one of my top 10 favorite players of all-time, so there's a slight bias there. Great offensive performer, but he didn't stand out in the postseason, and was probably just an average center-fielder.
    Last edited by RyanExpress30; 11-09-2009, 07:52 PM.

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  • Reds5
    replied
    The owners collusion didn't help him either.Of the free agents for 85-86 only 4 signed with new teams.
    Last edited by Reds5; 11-09-2009, 05:40 AM.

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  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post
    I suspect the public hissy fit on national tv was unhelpful, but not as unhelpful as the fact that Oliver was coming off a sub par season at age 38 (.252/.282/.374) and really couldn't play a position on the field anymore.
    Right. He was pretty much done. There were better and cheaper options. In that time period, he simply had nowhere else to go. The meltdown wasn't his downfall.

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  • Cougar
    replied
    I suspect the public hissy fit on national tv was unhelpful, but not as unhelpful as the fact that Oliver was coming off a subpar season at age 38 (.252/.282/.374) and really couldn't play a position on the field anymore.

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  • philliesfiend55
    replied
    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    Any other instances of this? He had one breakdown. So many players have. That's not enough to condemn him.

    Oliver is one of the nicest ex-players I have met. He currently does motivational speaking.
    He might have had other "breakdowns' that went largely unnoticed nationally. His timing was terrible during the '85 playoffs, however, at a highly visible point with a national audience. It was the GMs and owners of the time who condemned him. They never forgot the playoffs incident and as a result Oliver was unable to continue his playing career.

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  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by Philly-brownsfan View Post
    I clearly remember the deciding game of the 1985 playoffs between Kansas City and Toronto. Oliver started at DH or 1B but then in about the fifth inning when KC brought in a lefty pitcher Oliver was taken out of the lineup by Blue Jays manager, Bobby Cox in favor of a righty hitter. With the playoffs on the line and the chance to go into the World Series, instead of just keeping quiet and accepting the move, Oliver picked that moment to have a swearing, screaming meltdown.
    This occured one or two days after Oliver's 39th birthday, and although he had a relatively good year and the fact that he was only three years removed from a National League batting title....at that point Oliver's career was over. He never played in another MLB game.
    No owner wanted to employ him again and give him a chance to get the 240 some hits he needed to reach 3,000, with that kind of deportment and
    me-first attitude. He was really the antithesis of a good team player in that instance (and probably at other less dramatic times in his career). When a player puts his personal situation over that of his team when it's in a do or die game, then there's something wrong with that player. Possibly in part because of the distraction Oliver created, Toronto went on to lose that game and that ALCS.
    With 2757 hits, a .303 average and around 250 home runs, statistically Oliver would appear to have some decent Hall Of Fame qualifications, but on a personal level, Oliver isn't even close to making the Hall and never was.
    Any other instances of this? He had one breakdown. So many players have. That's not enough to condemn him.

    Oliver is one of the nicest ex-players I have met. He currently does motivational speaking.

    Leave a comment:


  • philliesfiend55
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
    That would be hard to ignore. I wish he would have reached that mark. Too bad he didn't. He only reached 2700+ hits with a .300+ BA.

    But let's look at that list. I love Al Oliver, but he just kinda sticks out from the group (or does he?):
    2700+ hits, .300+ BA, (OF, 1B, DH)
    Code:
      Cnt Player            OPS+   H    BA  From  To
    +----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+----+
        1 Babe Ruth          207 2873  .342 1914 1935 
        2 Lou Gehrig         179 2721  .340 1923 1939 
        3 Ty Cobb            167 4189  .366 1905 1928 
        4 Stan Musial        159 3630  .331 1941 1963 
        5 Tris Speaker       158 3514  .345 1907 1928 
        6 Willie Mays        156 3283  .302 1951 1973 
        7 Hank Aaron         155 3771  .305 1954 1976 
        8 Mel Ott            155 2876  .304 1926 1947 
        9 Sam Crawford       144 2961  .309 1899 1917 
       10 Cap Anson          141 3418  .333 1871 1897 
       11 Jesse Burkett      140 2850  .338 1890 1905 
       12 Paul Waner         134 3152  .333 1926 1945 
       13 Tony Gwynn         132 3141  .338 1982 2001 
       14 Al Simmons         132 2927  .334 1924 1944 
       15 Roberto Clemente   130 3000  .317 1955 1972 
       16 Zack Wheat         129 2884  .317 1909 1927 
       17 Goose Goslin       128 2735  .316 1921 1938 
       18 Willie Keeler      126 2932  .341 1892 1910 
       19 Jake Beckley       125 2930  .308 1888 1907 
       20 George Sisler      124 2812  .340 1915 1930 
    [B]   21 [U]Al Oliver[/U]          121 2743  .303 1968 1985 [/B]
       22 Sam Rice           112 2987  .322 1915 1934
    That list is composed of All first basemen or outfielders - Traditionally the top hitters positions.

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  • BigRon
    replied
    Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
    Oliver has one of the most oddly truncated careers of any player to have a realistic HOF case. He started out as a first baseman, then moved RIGHTWARD on the defensive spectrum to CENTER field. That's a pretty odd shift, dontcha think? Center field requires the kind of skills that one usually doesn't find in a first baseman (speed, throwing arm). Oliver played more games at CF than any other position; he divided the rest of his career between LF and 1B. He never won a Gold Glove at any of these positions, but he was never considered to be a defensive liability, either.
    Oliver moved to CF in the early 70s after the Pirates traded Matty Alou, and Bob Robertson was coming on very strong. For a couple of years it looked like Robertson would become a major home run force and he could only play 1B. So, Oliver became a CFer sort of by default. He had a good bat, was a good athlete, and had enough talent and skill to play CF- although not more than adequately.

    Even though Oliver played more games at CF than anywhere else, it seems to me to be a bit misleading to characterize him as a CFer. He played quite a few more games combined at 1B and LF- where he fit better.

    Al was a good player for a long time. He wouldn't get my vote for the HOF, but he was better than several enshrined there.

    I'd probably rate Vada Pinson slightly higher than Al, but he wouldn't make it either. For a few years it appeared that Pinson would be a HOFer, but he regressed and became just a good player for quite a few years. Better defense than Oliver, though.

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  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by brett View Post
    There was serious talk late '84 that Oliver had a good chance to reach 3000 hits AND have a lifetime .300 batting average and that that combination would make it impossible to keep him out of the hall of fame.
    That would be hard to ignore. I wish he would have reached that mark. Too bad he didn't. He only reached 2700+ hits with a .300+ BA.

    But let's look at that list. I love Al Oliver, but he just kinda sticks out from the group (or does he?):
    2700+ hits, .300+ BA, (OF, 1B, DH)
    Code:
      Cnt Player            OPS+   H    BA  From  To
    +----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+----+
        1 Babe Ruth          207 2873  .342 1914 1935 
        2 Lou Gehrig         179 2721  .340 1923 1939 
        3 Ty Cobb            167 4189  .366 1905 1928 
        4 Stan Musial        159 3630  .331 1941 1963 
        5 Tris Speaker       158 3514  .345 1907 1928 
        6 Willie Mays        156 3283  .302 1951 1973 
        7 Hank Aaron         155 3771  .305 1954 1976 
        8 Mel Ott            155 2876  .304 1926 1947 
        9 Sam Crawford       144 2961  .309 1899 1917 
       10 Cap Anson          141 3418  .333 1871 1897 
       11 Jesse Burkett      140 2850  .338 1890 1905 
       12 Paul Waner         134 3152  .333 1926 1945 
       13 Tony Gwynn         132 3141  .338 1982 2001 
       14 Al Simmons         132 2927  .334 1924 1944 
       15 Roberto Clemente   130 3000  .317 1955 1972 
       16 Zack Wheat         129 2884  .317 1909 1927 
       17 Goose Goslin       128 2735  .316 1921 1938 
       18 Willie Keeler      126 2932  .341 1892 1910 
       19 Jake Beckley       125 2930  .308 1888 1907 
       20 George Sisler      124 2812  .340 1915 1930 
    [B]   21 [U]Al Oliver[/U]          121 2743  .303 1968 1985 [/B]
       22 Sam Rice           112 2987  .322 1915 1934
    Last edited by dgarza; 11-06-2009, 09:27 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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