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  • How about Bernie?

    .305
    241 HR
    1062 RBI
    1,950 H
    372 2B
    143 SB
    1143 R

    4 GG
    1 Batting Title
    129.5 HOF monitor
    I share pictures from my collection of baseball photographs on twitter @PastimeClassics

  • #2
    There is quite a division over Bernie. Some feel he has always been underrated as a player, and without him the Yankees would not have been the dynasty they turned out to be. Others feel he is overrated, did not play defense as well as his record states, and should not even be considered for the Hall.

    About the HOF Monitor: Bernie's score is nice but not anything incredibly special. He is in the company of players like Don Mattingly, Steve Garvey, and Dave Parker... the very people who are stuck on the ballot these days. His HOF Standards score is 43.6, around where you find Andre Dawson, Dwight Evans, and Cupid Childs. There are roughly 20 active players with a higher score than either of his.

    This means that he hasn't been dominant enough during his career without a lengthy and productive one... and he hasn't gotten to that point yet.

    I'm keeping an eye on him. His career is not over yet and these next five years will go a long way toward his case with the writers. I can see him taking a complete nosedive one year, considering all his injuries lately; but I can also see him going on for a ways. I can also see him finishing his career as a DH, and that brings a whole new element into the equation.
    Last edited by J W; 11-26-2003, 11:46 PM.
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    • #3
      Bernie also has a few more things in his favor:

      - 7 consecutive seasons of 100+ RBI
      - 5 seasons of 100+ RBI
      - 8 consecutive seasons .300+ BA
      - 4 Gold Gloves
      - 4 WS rings

      The thing working against him at this point is, as JW pointed out, the length of his career. So far he hasn't been dominant enough over a short period of time and doesn't have a long enough career to have put up massive career totals. In a few years, if he continues to produce, and his runs scored, RBI, HR, and hit totals continue to pile up he should very well have a legitimate candidacy. He has quietly compiled a very impressive Hall of Fame resume, but he really needs to continue to add to it.

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      • #4
        If Williams could put up another 4-5 years of 90+ R/RBI, a .300 avg and 25 HR, while continuing to play above average defense in center field and staying healthy, I believe I'd be willing to advocate his election.

        Williams was rarely a league leader and very often not even among the league leaders. He's not been a particularly good baserunner and his defense, while not yet porous, has declined significantly from his prime. Williams' offensive production from a corner outfield spot or DH won't be enough to solidify a strong candidacy and I fear that a very underrated, underappreciated player will miss out on the Hall of Fame. Sadly...I don't think he'll make it, nor (probably) should he. But he's a helluva ballplayer and I'd love to have him on our team.

        Ironically, Kenny Lofton (who'd been given up for dead just a few years ago) has rejuvenated his career and sparked hope for a minor candidacy when it's his turn. Three years ago I'd have said Williams was likely to draw some votes and Lofton will be off on the first ballot. I'm beginning to think it might end up the other way.

        I'm not optimistic about the remainder of Williams' career.
        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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        • #5
          How much will the NY factor play in?
          I share pictures from my collection of baseball photographs on twitter @PastimeClassics

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Eddie Collins
            How much will the NY factor play in?
            The added visibility of playing on the Yankees may help him, but on the other hand I could also see it working against him. He hasn't been that one standout player on all those WS Yankee teams garnering the spotlight. Rather he's faded into the background behind Jeter, Clemens, et al. Had he been the singular standout player on lesser ballclubs he may have perhaps been in the spotlight more. Then again, it begs the chicken/egg question of whether the Yankees won due to him or whether his numbers are due to playing on the Yankees? Hopefully if he continues to produce and compile Hall of Fame calibre numbers, that question will be rendered moot in a few years.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Eddie Collins
              How much will the NY factor play in?
              Sadly, it will probably work to his advantage.
              Last edited by The Commissioner; 12-06-2003, 07:15 AM.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by hudsonharden
                Sadly, it will probably work to his advantage.
                Not in recent years. You can count Yankee award winners on one hand for the last two decades.
                Last edited by The Commissioner; 12-06-2003, 07:15 AM.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Eddie Collins
                  How much will the NY factor play in?
                  Alot ,he will play his entire career as a NEW YORK YANKEE. That means alot.Plus he has good stats to back him up,plus 4 Wrld Series Rings, And being a member of the greatest Baseball franchise ever helps to.

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                  • #10
                    When I think of Bernie Williams he reminds me of another New York Yankee outfielder that was great in his day but will always have to buy a ticket to the HOF and he is Bobby Murcer.

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                    • #11
                      Murcer was a great player at his peak but other than that was only fair. Williams has been consistent year in year out and posted a very good year every year 1994-2002. Williams is better than Murcer, and IMO you don't have to be that much better than Murcer to be a HOFer.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 538280
                        Murcer was a great player at his peak but other than that was only fair. Williams has been consistent year in year out and posted a very good year every year 1994-2002. Williams is better than Murcer, and IMO you don't have to be that much better than Murcer to be a HOFer.
                        Yes. Bernie Wlliams has been consistant and was better than Bobby Murcer.

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                        • #13
                          I believe you could make an argument on Bernie Williams Postseason stats to get in to the HOF. Leads in postseason in games, tied for AB's, runs,Total Bases, Doubles, HR, RBI, extra base hits, and times on base. And is second in hits, BB, and singles. Also has a ALCS MVP. But if he was not on the yankees and not had got in to all those postseason appeances (played in 24 postseason series) He probably would not be a real contender for the HOF for he was not dominant in his regular season playing career. (only 4 black ink and 61 grey ink)
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RedSoxVT92
                            I believe you could make an argument on Bernie Williams Postseason stats to get in to the HOF. Leads in postseason in games, tied for AB's, runs,Total Bases, Doubles, HR, RBI, extra base hits, and times on base. And is second in hits, BB, and singles. Also has a ALCS MVP. But if he was not on the yankees and not had got in to all those postseason appeances (played in 24 postseason series) He probably would not be a real contender for the HOF for he was not dominant in his regular season playing career. (only 4 black ink and 61 grey ink)
                            I honestly can't stand ink tests, and I can't believe anyone could possibly think Bernie Williams wasn't dominant in the regular season. Bernie from 1997 to 2002 had a 140 or higher OPS+ every year, and he did that while providing the best CF in the league (graded A+ by Defensive Win Shares, 4 Gold Gloves). His career OPS+ is 127. For a CFer in the modern game, that's a very, very good total. Plus, he's been an outstanding clubhouse influence and was a key member (probably the best player of) one of the greatest teams of all time

                            Bernie Williams has been a great underrated player. He deserves the HOF.

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                            • #15
                              Does anybody else have the suspicion that Bernie's career is very similar to what Larry Walker's would look like had he not played in Coors?

                              Bernie has the postseason heroics working for him

                              Walker was probably the better overall player- a true five tooler for several years whose overall game was overlooked becaue of the intense scrutiny of his triple crown stats because of Coors.
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