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How about Bernie?

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  • 538280
    replied
    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
    When Nettles was playing, there was Schmidt and Brett and a significant drop off. By the time Wade Boggs came around, the chasm became more apparent. I'm not taking anything away from Nettles, he was a very good player for some very good teams, but you'll have a hard time selling a .248 batting average to the great majority of baseball fans, the ones who are the ones mostly going the the actual museum.
    A closer look reveals not much of a significant difference, looking at all aspects of the player, between Brooks Robinson and Nettles. But for whatever reason Robinson was held in higher regard. The Fame factor that is sneered at but seems to somehow resonate with the people who actually vote.
    Nettles was a great player. Forget the BA, look at everything else he did. You'll find he did everything else just about as well as it could be done. Then there's the BA that draggs him down, but IMO not enough. In any way I measure players, Nettles is probably better than Brooks, though I rate Brooks ahead because of contemporary respect (as much as I hate it, I have to consider it sometimes)

    Nettles is HOF quality player, but if what you say about him never being regarded as that good is true, I'm not sure if I can endorse him as a HOFer.

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  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by Chisox
    Quite frankly I've got Nettles as one of the top 10 3B of all-time. I don't ever remember seeing him play, but combining his offense and defense, I think makes for a VERY compelling case.
    When Nettles was playing, there was Schmidt and Brett and a significant drop off. By the time Wade Boggs came around, the chasm became more apparent. I'm not taking anything away from Nettles, he was a very good player for some very good teams, but you'll have a hard time selling a .248 batting average to the great majority of baseball fans, the ones who are the ones mostly going the the actual museum.
    A closer look reveals not much of a significant difference, looking at all aspects of the player, between Brooks Robinson and Nettles. But for whatever reason Robinson was held in higher regard. The Fame factor that is sneered at but seems to somehow resonate with the people who actually vote.

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by Chisox
    Quite frankly I've got Nettles as one of the top 10 3B of all-time. I don't ever remember seeing him play, but combining his offense and defense, I think makes for a VERY compelling case.
    Depends upon whether we include Killebrew, Dandridge, Molitor, DAllen, EMartinez, TPerez ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Chisox
    replied
    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
    But Graig Nettles will never make it to the HOF. I saw him play. I even watched him play in a celebrity tennis tournament with Steve Garvey and Bob Uecker. A fine third baseman with power, but never a superstar. There is nothing wrong with just being a good player.
    Quite frankly I've got Nettles as one of the top 10 3B of all-time. I don't ever remember seeing him play, but combining his offense and defense, I think makes for a VERY compelling case.

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  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by NOMAR22
    Someday Craig Nettles will be a HOF. I saw him play. One of the greatest 3rd basemens ever. And he had power to!
    But Graig Nettles will never make it to the HOF. I saw him play. I even watched him play in a celebrity tennis tournament with Steve Garvey and Bob Uecker. A fine third baseman with power, but never a superstar. There is nothing wrong with just being a good player.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chisox
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    Well, I've just been trying to get a picture of what Walker's career would look like, statistically outside of Coors to get a better picture of his HOF worthiness. I think that Bernie's career is a pretty good prediction in this sense.
    I'm not disagreeing, I just haven't thought about it like that before. I'd say that as hitters Walker would probably have about the same regular seasons stats as Williams.

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  • digglahhh
    replied
    Originally posted by Chisox
    I don't know about the same player, but I've got them about equal. Maybe exchange Bernie's consistency with Walker's running.
    Well, I've just been trying to get a picture of what Walker's career would look like, statistically outside of Coors to get a better picture of his HOF worthiness. I think that Bernie's career is a pretty good prediction in this sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • NOMAR22
    replied
    Originally posted by 538280
    Nettles is a lot closer than a lot of people realize. Personally, I see little that separates him and Brooks Robinson. Brooks was a better fielder, but Nettles was a better hitter. IMO, the fielding and hitting difference between them is about equal.

    Nettles was a great fielder (one of the greatest ever at his position), a very good hitter who had very good power (top 5 in the 70s in home runs) and walked a lot. He didn't have a good BA, but he did everything else well.
    Someday Craig Nettles will be a HOF. I saw him play. One of the greatest 3rd basemens ever. And he had power to!

    Leave a comment:


  • 538280
    replied
    Originally posted by julusnc
    Bernie Williams falls into the same group with Paul O'Neill, Bobby Murcer, and Craig Nettles.All were great all-star players and team leaders but not HOFers.
    Nettles is a lot closer than a lot of people realize. Personally, I see little that separates him and Brooks Robinson. Brooks was a better fielder, but Nettles was a better hitter. IMO, the fielding and hitting difference between them is about equal.

    Nettles was a great fielder (one of the greatest ever at his position), a very good hitter who had very good power (top 5 in the 70s in home runs) and walked a lot. He didn't have a good BA, but he did everything else well.

    Leave a comment:


  • julusnc
    replied
    Bernie Williams falls into the same group with Paul O'Neill, Bobby Murcer, and Craig Nettles.All were great all-star players and team leaders but not HOFers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chisox
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    Does anybody have an opinion on my Bernie is what Larry Walker would look like with a career outside of Coors theory?

    Also, do you think Bernie has a better case than Larry?

    Does the postseason success outweigh the fact that Walker was a slightly better all around player?
    I don't know about the same player, but I've got them about equal. Maybe exchange Bernie's consistency with Walker's running.

    Leave a comment:


  • digglahhh
    replied
    Does anybody have an opinion on my Bernie is what Larry Walker would look like with a career outside of Coors theory?

    Also, do you think Bernie has a better case than Larry?

    Does the postseason success outweigh the fact that Walker was a slightly better all around player?

    Leave a comment:


  • Chisox
    replied
    Originally posted by BoSox Rule
    I'd say he needs three more 6 WARP seasons to get some serious consideration since he **** the bed when he was 34. I don't see him doing that but I do greatly appreciate him as a player. Look at WARP from 1996-2002.

    1996: Bernie 8.9, Jeter 5.3
    1997: Bernie 8.6, Jeter 6.3
    1998: Bernie 9.2, Jeter 9.1
    1999: Bernie 10.9, Jeter 11.0
    2000: Bernie 8.2, Jeter 7.8
    2001: Bernie 9.0, Jeter 6.9
    2002: Bernie 8.0, Jeter 6.9

    Nobody realizes Bernie was the Yankees best player during their Dynasty years.
    I've realized it all along and have been stating such. I would advocate Bernie for the HOF. I wouldn't be too suprised or mad/sad if he did not make it, but I do think he deserves it. I view him as a top 20 all-time CF with his post-seasons making him somewhere around 15.

    Using the above list: The 4 championships of WARPs add up to 37.2-33.2 or 1 a season difference.

    Leave a comment:


  • NOMAR22
    replied
    Originally posted by dl4060
    Bernie has been a fine player, and he is close. I do not feel he has been dominant enough, but part of that might be the era he has played in. While it is always difficult to judge, we do have more elite players now than we had in the 1980's. Bernie may also be benefit from the current sterioid allegations. He has been one of the classiest players in baseball his entire career, and played the game the right way. Bernie always struck me as a guy who would be just as content hitting a ground ball to the right side to advance a runner to third, and then watching that runner score on a sac fly to win the game, as he would hitting a walk-off homer. Obviously I am exaggerating, but the Yankee teams of the late 90's seemed to me to ooze that "team first" attitude. Jeter is the same way. Bernie embodied that spirit as well as anyone. He is part of the reason those teams were greater than the sum of their parts, which stands in sharp contrast to the last few Yankee teams.
    Well said.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoSox Rule
    replied
    I'd say he needs three more 6 WARP seasons to get some serious consideration since he **** the bed when he was 34. I don't see him doing that but I do greatly appreciate him as a player. Look at WARP from 1996-2002.

    1996: Bernie 8.9, Jeter 5.3
    1997: Bernie 8.6, Jeter 6.3
    1998: Bernie 9.2, Jeter 9.1
    1999: Bernie 10.9, Jeter 11.0
    2000: Bernie 8.2, Jeter 7.8
    2001: Bernie 9.0, Jeter 6.9
    2002: Bernie 8.0, Jeter 6.9

    Nobody realizes Bernie was the Yankees best player during their Dynasty years.

    Leave a comment:

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