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Blyleven and His HoF Peers?

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  • Blyleven and His HoF Peers?

    Which (if any) of Bert Blyleven's pitching peers who have been elected to the Hall of Fame, do you feel Bert was better than?

    Here's who we got:

    Catfish Hunter
    Fergie Jenkins
    Phil Niekro
    Jim Palmer
    Gaylord Perry
    Nolan Ryan
    Tom Seaver
    Don Sutton

    Did I forget anyone?

    I personally feel that Blyleven was vastly superior to Hunter and Sutton, better than Niekro and Jenkins, and probably on the same level as Perry, but perhaps better. I also think, though its probably stretching it a bit, that an argument could be made for Blyleven being on Ryan's level, though I certainly would not take it any further than that, as I believe Palmer and Seaver to be on an even higher level.
    102
    Catfish Hunter
    23.53%
    24
    Fergie Jenkins
    13.73%
    14
    Phil Niekro
    18.63%
    19
    Jim Palmer
    4.90%
    5
    Gaylord Perry
    6.86%
    7
    Nolan Ryan
    3.92%
    4
    Tom Seaver
    0.00%
    0
    Don Sutton
    22.55%
    23
    Steve Carlton
    1.96%
    2
    None of the Above
    3.92%
    4

  • #2
    I put Blyleven ahead of Sutton, Hunter, Niekro, and Jenkins. However, much like Blyleven, I don't think any of them belong in the Hall, either.
    "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

    Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

    Comment


    • #3
      You're poll won't let me pick "none of the above".

      Comment


      • #4
        --I picked Hunter and Sutton, but agree none of the above should have been an option.

        Comment


        • #5
          Of the ones mentioned...

          1. Seaver
          2. Carlton
          3. Palmer
          4. Ryan
          5. Perry
          6. Jenkins
          7. Blyleven
          8. Niekro
          9. Sutton
          10. Hunter

          Niekro and Blyleven could go either way for me.

          Side note: Of these nine, I think only Hunter should not be in Cooperstown.
          Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 02-04-2006, 09:55 PM.
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          Comment


          • #6
            I think Carlton should be added to your poll.

            Blyleven had a better career than Ryan, Niekro and Carlton, overall. Talk all you want about Ryan's no-hitters, I'll take Blyleven's 15 1-0 wins (the 3rd most ever, behind Christy Matthewson and Walter Johnson, who got theirs during the deadball era when 1-0 wins were more commonplace) over every one of them because as impressive sounding as a no-hitter is when you break it down it is really nothing more than a shutout. Blyleven was also one of the better post-season pitchers ever and by far better than many in the HOF today.

            Let's also take a look at how Blyleven compares to Carlton, Ryan and Phil Niekro (contemporaries that are in the HOF):

            Only Ryan had more Shutouts (61 vs 60) but Blyleven had more per Games Started than any of them.

            Only Ryan had a better ERA but he was helped by more time in the DH-less NL, and Carlton and Niekro were mainly NL pitchers and never had to worry about the DH but had higher career ERA's.

            Blyleven had a better WHIP and a better Batters Faced per Inning Pitched.

            While the big knock against Blyleven is that he gave up a bunch of HR's Niekro actually gave up more per 9IP and more per Batters Faced.

            Of these 4 only Carlton ever won the CYA.

            More reasons why:

            Top 10 finishes:

            ERA-Blyleven 10, Ryan & Carlton 8 each, Niekro 4
            Whip-Blyleven 11, Ryan 9, Niekro & Carlton 5 each
            Shutouts-Ryan 13, Carlton 11, Blyleven & Niekro 10

            When it came to K's Ryan and Carlton were better but Blyleven was no slouch there. His 3701 career K's were 3rd when he retired and is still 5th all-time. He was top Ten 15 times in total K's and 14 times in K's/9.

            For the record, Ryan and Niekro never once were the top votegetters among starters in the CYA voting but Blyleven was number 1 among starters once.

            Blyleven was also very good at inducing the DP, better than Ryan, Carlton or Niekro.

            As for Gaylord perry, Doesnt him " cheating " exclude him ?

            Isnt that why some drop Bonds and other's involved in the " steroid scandal " ?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dontworry
              I think Carlton should be added to your poll.
              Oh yes Carlton, I totally forgot about him. I'll add him, thanks. I'll also add a "None of the Above."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Dontworry
                I think Carlton should be added to your poll.

                Blyleven had a better career than Ryan, Niekro and Carlton, overall. Talk all you want about Ryan's no-hitters, I'll take Blyleven's 15 1-0 wins (the 3rd most ever, behind Christy Matthewson and Walter Johnson, who got theirs during the deadball era when 1-0 wins were more commonplace) over every one of them because as impressive sounding as a no-hitter is when you break it down it is really nothing more than a shutout. Blyleven was also one of the better post-season pitchers ever and by far better than many in the HOF today.

                Let's also take a look at how Blyleven compares to Carlton, Ryan and Phil Niekro (contemporaries that are in the HOF):

                Only Ryan had more Shutouts (61 vs 60) but Blyleven had more per Games Started than any of them.

                Only Ryan had a better ERA but he was helped by more time in the DH-less NL, and Carlton and Niekro were mainly NL pitchers and never had to worry about the DH but had higher career ERA's.

                Blyleven had a better WHIP and a better Batters Faced per Inning Pitched.

                While the big knock against Blyleven is that he gave up a bunch of HR's Niekro actually gave up more per 9IP and more per Batters Faced.

                Of these 4 only Carlton ever won the CYA.

                More reasons why:

                Top 10 finishes:

                ERA-Blyleven 10, Ryan & Carlton 8 each, Niekro 4
                Whip-Blyleven 11, Ryan 9, Niekro & Carlton 5 each
                Shutouts-Ryan 13, Carlton 11, Blyleven & Niekro 10

                When it came to K's Ryan and Carlton were better but Blyleven was no slouch there. His 3701 career K's were 3rd when he retired and is still 5th all-time. He was top Ten 15 times in total K's and 14 times in K's/9.

                For the record, Ryan and Niekro never once were the top votegetters among starters in the CYA voting but Blyleven was number 1 among starters once.

                Blyleven was also very good at inducing the DP, better than Ryan, Carlton or Niekro.

                As for Gaylord perry, Doesnt him " cheating " exclude him ?

                Isnt that why some drop Bonds and other's involved in the " steroid scandal " ?
                Also Dontworry, I once made almost an identical argument about why Blyleven is better than Ryan (though I wouldn't go so far as to put him ahead of Carlton, and I think the 4 Cy Youngs have a lot to do with that).

                Comment


                • #9
                  --Carlton at his best was significantly better than Blyleven at his best. Bert makes up a little ground because his worst years weren't as bad as Lefty's. Not nearly enough to rank ahead of Carlton though. Blyleven isn't that far behind Ryan/Perry/Neikro, but they all peaked higher too and come out narrowly, but clearly ahead IMO.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by leecemark
                    --Carlton at his best was significantly better than Blyleven at his best. Bert makes up a little ground because his worst years weren't as bad as Lefty's. Not nearly enough to rank ahead of Carlton though. Blyleven isn't that far behind Ryan/Perry/Neikro, but they all peaked higher too and come out narrowly, but clearly ahead IMO.
                    How do you figure Niekro had a better peak than Blyleven? Or even Perry, outside of 1972?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pine Tar
                      You're poll won't let me pick "none of the above".
                      If you don't think Bert was better than Catfish, we don't know what to do for ya h
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm the ONLY one who thinks Blyleven was better than Palmer? What are you guys going by? h
                        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                          If you don't think Bert was better than Catfish, we don't know what to do for ya h
                          When was Bert better than Catfish? He played longer but I can't see when he was ever better.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                            I'm the ONLY one who thinks Blyleven was better than Palmer? What are you guys going by? h
                            You're kidding right? Who would you have rather had on your team?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here are some comparisons:

                              Number of Top 5 ERA Seasons
                              1) Bert Blyleven - 7
                              t2) Steve Carlton - 5
                              t2) Nolan Ryan - 5
                              4) Don Sutton - 4
                              t5) Gaylord Perry - 3
                              t5) Phil Niekro - 3
                              t5) Catfish Hunter - 3
                              8) Fergie Jenkins - 0

                              Number of Top 10 ERA Seasons
                              1) Gaylord Perry - 11
                              2) Bert Blyleven - 10
                              t3) Steve Carlton - 8
                              t3) Nolan Ryan - 8
                              t3) Don Sutton - 8
                              6) Phil Niekro - 4
                              t7) Fergie Jenkins - 3
                              t7) Catfish Hunter - 3

                              Number of Top 5 ERA+ Seasons
                              1) Bert Blyleven - 7
                              2) Steve Carlton - 5
                              3) Nolan Ryan - 4
                              t4) Phil Niekro - 3
                              t4) Don Sutton - 3
                              t4) Catfish Hunter - 3
                              7) Gaylord Perry - 2
                              8) Fergie Jenkins - 2

                              Number of Top 10 ERA+ Seasons
                              1) Bert Blyleven - 11
                              2) Gaylord Perry - 10
                              t3) Steve Carlton - 7
                              t3) Nolan Ryan - 7
                              t3) Phil Niekro - 7
                              t3) Don Sutton - 7
                              7) Fergie Jenkins - 6
                              8) Catfish Hunter - 3

                              Number of 130+ ERA Seasons
                              1) Bert Blyleven - 7
                              2) Steve Carlton - 5
                              t3) Nolan Ryan - 4
                              t3) Gaylord Perry - 4
                              t3) Phil Niekro - 4
                              t6) Don Sutton - 3
                              t6) Catfish Hunter - 3
                              7) Fergie Jenkins - 2

                              Career ERA+
                              1) Bert Blyleven - 118
                              2) Gaylord Perry - 117
                              t3) Steve Carlton - 115
                              t3) Phil Niero - 115
                              t3) Fergie Jenkins - 115
                              6) Nolan Ryan - 112
                              7) Don Sutton - 108
                              8) Catfish Unter - 104

                              Number of Top 5 Strikeout Seasons
                              1) Nolan Ryan - 18
                              2) Bert Blyleven - 13
                              3) Steve Carlton - 12
                              4) Fergie Jenkins - 9
                              5) Gaylord Perry - 7
                              6) Phil Niekro - 6
                              7) Don Sutton - 3
                              8) Catfish Hunter - 1

                              Number of Top 10 Strikeout Seasons
                              1) Nolan Ryan - 20
                              2) Steve Carlton - 16
                              3) Bert Blyleven - 15
                              4) Don Sutton - 13
                              t5) Gaylord Perry - 12
                              t5) Fergie Jenkins - 12
                              t7) Phil Niekro - 7
                              t7) Catfish Hunter - 7

                              Number of Top 5 WHIP Seasons
                              1) Don Sutton - 10
                              2) Bert Blyleven - 7
                              t3) Nolan Ryan - 6
                              t3) Gaylord Perry - 6
                              5) Steve Carlton - 5
                              t6) Phil Niekro - 4
                              t6) Fergie Jenkins - 4
                              t6) Catfish Hunter - 4

                              Number of Top 10 WHIP Seasons
                              1) Don Sutton - 14
                              2) Fergie Jenkins - 13
                              3) Bert Blyleven - 11
                              4) Gaylord Perry - 10
                              5) Nolan Ryan - 9
                              t6) Steve Carlton - 6
                              t6) Catfish Hunter - 6
                              8) Phil Niekro - 5

                              Career Strikeouts
                              1) Nolan Ryan - 5714
                              2) Steve Carlton - 4136
                              3) Bert Blyleven - 3701
                              4) Don Sutton - 3574
                              5) Gaylord Perry - 3534
                              6) Phil Niekro - 3342
                              7) Fergie Jenkins - 3192
                              8) Catfish Hunter - 2012

                              Career Shutouts
                              1) Nolan Ryan - 61
                              2) Bert Blyleven - 60
                              3) Don Sutton - 58
                              4) Steve Carlton - 55
                              5) Gaylord Perry - 53
                              6) Fergie Jenkins - 49
                              7) Phil Niekro - 45
                              8) Catfish Hunter - 42

                              Career Complete Games
                              1) Gaylord Perry - 303
                              2) Fergie Jenkins - 267
                              3) Steve Carlton - 254
                              4) Phil Niekro - 245
                              5) Bert Blyleven - 242
                              6) Nolan Ryan - 222
                              7) Catfish Hunter - 181
                              8) Don Sutton - 178

                              Number of Top 5 IP Seasons
                              1) Gaylord Perry - 10
                              2) Fergie Jenkins - 9
                              t3) Steve Carlton - 8
                              t3) Phil Niekro - 8
                              5) Bert Blyleven
                              - 6
                              6) Catfish Hunter - 4
                              t7) Nolan Ryan - 3
                              t7) Don Sutton - 3

                              Number of Top 10 IP Seasons
                              1) Steve Carlton - 14
                              t2) Bert Blyleven - 11
                              t2) Gaylord Perry - 11
                              t2) Phil Niekro - 11
                              t5) Fergie Jenkins - 10
                              t5) Don Sutton - 10
                              7) Nolan Ryan - 9
                              8) Catfish Hunter - 6

                              Average Ranking
                              1) Bert Blyleven - 2.27
                              2) Steve Carlton - 2.93
                              3) Gaylord Perry - 3.40
                              4) Nolan Ryan - 3.47
                              5) Don Sutton - 4.47
                              6) Phil Niekro - 4.87
                              7) Fergie Jenkins - 5.27
                              8) Catfish Hunter - 6.80

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