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The Hall of Mistakes, Election #19 (elect two)

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  • The Hall of Mistakes, Election #19 (elect two)

    The Hall of Fame is never going to identify its mistakes, so it’s up to us. This is the 19th in a series of polls to set up a new wing in the Coop. I'm going to pick up the pace a bit, electing two players for the next three elections, then three players for the last three elections, to get us up to 33 players.

    We want to isolate the players that don’t reach the HOF’s minimum standards, so that they will not be used as examples for arguing that a similar player deserves enshrinement. We’ll elect one mistake at a time. These are our first 18 dishonorees, by position:

    C - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
    1B - George Kelly
    2B - none
    3B - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson
    SS - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker
    LF - Chick Hafey
    CF - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
    RF - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs
    P - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt

    Over on the History forum they’re running polls using the MVP voting format, voting for 10 guys in rank order, with points assigned 12,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Let’s use that method, but make the 2nd place vote now worth 11 points. Your worst hall of fame player will be voted #1, the next worst #2, down to your 10th worst. The player with the most total points at the end of the poll (probably about a week) will hereafter be designated as a Mistake. We will follow with another thread to identify the next worst player, and so on. We’ll continue until we’ve voted out 15% of the Coop’s 213 players (32 guys; this could increase to 33 if at least four players from Black baseball are elected in 2006).

    Players classified by the HOF as Pioneers/Managers/Executives/Umpires (e.g., Candy Cummings) are not eligible for this election. However, be aware that the 17 Negro league players are included - they are fair game for labeling as Mistakes.

    We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, Tommy McCarthy is probably the worst player in the Hall stat-wise. However, he was elected as much for being an innovator, a pioneer and a winning player as he was for his production as a player.

    Or Hughie Jennings. He has one of the shortest playing careers in the Hall. However, he was also a successful manager in addition to being the central player on a team often cited as the best of the 19th century. Frank Chance has a similar profile.

    So, voters will have to decide how much weight to give non-playing accomplishments. It should be interesting, as voters will need to consider more than just stats.

    A couple threads in this forum suggest candidates for voting out. (Underlined players are still active candidates.) The “Upper/Lower Hall of Fame Vote” thread has my list of who I think are the worst 76 players in the Hall. The poll under “Veterans Committee Mistakes” has the 26 worst players being Haines, T.Jackson, Lindstrom, Chesbro, Combs, Marquard, L. Waner, R. Ferrell, Hafey, Youngs, Hooper, G.Kelly, Tinker, Bottomley, Evers, Bancroft, Schoendienst, Rizzuto, Schalk, Lazzeri, Kell, Manush, Bender, Hoyt, Beckley and Wilson. (That poll did not include McCarthy, Willis or Chance.) There is also some good discussion from last spring in the thread “Weak HOFers”. Finally, in the thread "5 Tier HOF (v. 2) - The Admirable & Borderline" from 2003, the bottom 25 were identified (alphabetically) as Bancroft, Bottomley, Bresnahan, Chance, Chesbro, Combs, Evers, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Hoyt, T.Jackson, G.Kelly, Lindstrom, Maranville, Marquard, Mazeroski, McCarthy, Pennock, Rizzuto, Schalk, Schoendienst, Tinker, L.Waner, and Youngs.

    With Lindstrom, Kelly, McCarthy, Marquard, Haines, Waner, T. Jackson, Ferrell, Youngs, Bender, Hafey, Pennock, Combs, Chesbro, Hoyt, Tinker, Schalk and Johnson no longer eligible, here's my list of the next ten to vote out:

    1.Kell G
    2.Bottomley
    3.Willis
    4.Manush
    5.Hooper
    6.Bancroft
    7.Evers
    8.Mazeroski
    9.Schoendienst
    10.Cuyler
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    --With Johnson out I think we've eliminated all the obvious mistakes. There are still lots of borderline guys though. Players who have more in common with the best players not in than their fellow inductees in Cooperstown.

    Comment


    • #3
      1. Schoendienst
      2. Fingers
      3. Perez, Tony
      4. Bottomley
      5. Rizzuto
      6. Mazeroski
      7. Evers
      8. Bresnahan
      9. Hooper
      10. Bancroft
      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by leecemark
        --With Johnson out I think we've eliminated all the obvious mistakes. There are still lots of borderline guys though. Players who have more in common with the best players not in than their fellow inductees in Cooperstown.
        I mostly agree with this. None of the 18 mistakes to this point is one of the 300 best players in history; neither are the next two electees, for that matter. Basically, we want to reach the point where any player not among the top 250 all-time is identified and set aside; in my analysis, that means about 15% of the Coop's members. So, there's still some hard work to do, separating the ins from the outs.

        But we are at the point where the difference between candidates is becoming pretty small. How a voter weighs career versus peak will make a big difference between ballots. Most of the obvious picks, those with short careers combined with a low peak, are off the board.

        I guess that's why I would never consider Tony Perez to be a mistake. Sure, his career rate stats were dragged down by a long tail of decline years. But his career counting stats are certainly HOF caliber. Looking at win shares, he had 349 in his career. And that includes a great peak from 1968-73: 25-31-33-23-25-32. That's an average of 29 in his five best years, again, easily HOF caliber. Plus, he has a stellar reputation for his character.

        Compare him to Kell, who I've been pushing for awhile. His win shares peak was 1946-51: 22-24-11-24-26-22. That's an average of 24 in his five best years. His career total was only 229, or 241 adjusted to a 162-game schedule. Hey, a short career with a low peak - looks like a mistake to me!
        Last edited by Freakshow; 02-09-2006, 06:17 AM.
        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KCGHOST
          1. Schoendienst
          2. Fingers
          3. Perez, Tony
          4. Bottomley
          5. Rizzuto
          6. Mazeroski
          7. Evers
          8. Bresnahan
          9. Hooper
          10. Bancroft
          Why do you think Bresnahan is a mistake? Finishing in the top six in OBP seven times in a career is a mark that not many catchers can claim. He's also one of the better base stealers among catchers in baseball history. Don Zminda's 1999 article on catchers with over 750 games caught ranked catchers by RC/27 divided by league RC/27 had Bresnahan second to Mike Piazza. I'm not saying that Roger should be mentioned in the same breath as Bench, Cochrane or Josh Gibson. But I don't see him as a "mistake" either.

          Comment


          • #6
            1.Johnny Evers
            2.Red Schoendienst
            3.George Kell
            4.Phil Rizzuto
            5.Bill Mazeroski
            6.Jim Bottomley
            7.Harry Hooper

            I could only come up with 7 remaining players I see as not HOF worthy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by julusnc
              1.Johnny Evers
              2.Red Schoendienst
              3.George Kell
              4.Phil Rizzuto
              5.Bill Mazeroski
              6.Jim Bottomley
              7.Harry Hooper

              I could only come up with 7 remaining players I see as not HOF worthy.
              I appreciate the ballot, and will include it in the tally. But, I would also ask you to edit your ballot and include your next three players. While I realize that those seven complete your personal list, this project wants to take it further than that. If we can get your opinion for those next three I think we'll ultimately have a better result.

              It's not like you get to Hooper and suddenly have a big gap between him and the truly deserving players. Hooper is verging into the gray area of ins and outs, where he may be slightly better or worse than Willis, Manush, Bancroft, et al. Just because the next three are not obvious does not preclude them from being identifed as mistakes, IMO.

              One of the guides I use is voting results from the Hall of Merit project. Every player on my ballot (except Maz, who isn't eligible yet) is getting scant support in those elections.

              I guess I'm asking voters to go along with my definition of "mistake" as being the bottom 15%. Even if you disagree with that, I still ask for your opinion.

              I'll tell you what this is leading to. The next phase, which I call "The Hall of Corrections", will identify the top 33 players who should be in the Coop. It is my firm belief that the 33rd best correction is a better player than the 33rd worst mistake. YMMV.
              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CTaka
                Why do you think Bresnahan is a mistake?
                I'd be a little more inclined to answer your question had you ever bothered to fill out a ballot in these mistake opinion polls.
                Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                Comment


                • #9
                  1.Vic Willis
                  2.Red Schoendienst
                  3.Eppa Rixey
                  4.Heinie Manush
                  5.George Kell
                  6.Jim Bottomley
                  7.Harry Hooper
                  8.Dave Bancroft
                  9.Phil Rizzuto
                  10.Catfish Hunter

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTaka
                    Why do you think Bresnahan is a mistake? Finishing in the top six in OBP seven times in a career is a mark that not many catchers can claim. He's also one of the better base stealers among catchers in baseball history. Don Zminda's 1999 article on catchers with over 750 games caught ranked catchers by RC/27 divided by league RC/27 had Bresnahan second to Mike Piazza. I'm not saying that Roger should be mentioned in the same breath as Bench, Cochrane or Josh Gibson. But I don't see him as a "mistake" either.
                    I agree. Bresnahan and Hughie Jennings reputation as HOFers was really hurt by Bill James in his great book The Politics of Glory. I think Bill was mistaken about both of them though. He was looking too much at his new HOF measures like HOF standards and HOF monitor which are very unfair to short career players with great peaks, since they make no peak consideration. Jennings was easily the best player in baseball in the mid 1890s, and also has a good managing career afterwards. I think he's a borderline case, but I'd put him in.

                    James' methods were also unfair to Bresnahan because catchers in his time rarely even caught 100 games. He penalizes him for having a short career when his career was actually one of the longest for any catcher at the time he retired.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here is the consensus ballot from last election:

                      1.Bottomley
                      2.Schoendienst
                      3.Willis
                      4.Kell
                      5.Bancroft
                      6.Rizzuto
                      7.Hooper
                      8.Fingers
                      9.Manush
                      10.Perez
                      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Results, Election #19

                        Condolences to Jim Bottomley and Red Schoendienst (our first second baseman), who easily become the 19th and 20th members of the Hall of Mistakes. They join Fred Lindstrom, George Kelly, Tommy McCarthy, Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Lloyd Waner, Travis Jackson, Rick Ferrell, Ross Youngs, Chief Bender, Chick Hafey, Herb Pennock, Earle Combs, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Joe Tinker, Ray Schalk and Judy Johnson. Willis and Kell are the front-runners for the next election.

                        Here are the full results for the 19th election:
                        Code:
                        Pts	1st	Bal	Top 10 Players
                        47	1	5	Red Schoendienst
                        40	1	5	Jim Bottomley
                        33	1	4	George Kell
                        28	1	3	Vic Willis
                        20	0	5	Harry Hooper
                        20	0	4	Phil Rizzuto
                        20	1	3	Johnny Evers
                        16	0	3	Heinie Manush
                        15	0	4	Dave Bancroft
                        14	0	3	Bill Mazeroski
                        			the rest
                        14	0	2	Fingers
                        9	0	2	Perez
                        8	0	1	Rixey
                        3	0	1	Bresnahan
                        1	0	1	Cuyler
                        1	0	1	Hunter
                        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                        Comment

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