Tom Glavine and the Hall

[Sultan_1895-1948]

No, you generally come across as very intelligent and articulate in your points, but you seem to have an almost pathological hatred for players who can put up good BA's.

Or who played in the 20's


No doubt Atlanta has had great defenses. I can't believe that Matt actually said Brian Jordan was an all-time great outfielder, but in any case; I think Glavine's defense has less to do with his success than his approach/ability does.

His approach has been to feed off the hitter's aggressiveness, and in this era, a better approach can't be found. It certainly hasn't hurt him that his outside corner extends 3 inches, but I credit him for A) being consistent enough to eventually get that call B) being talented and smart enough to exploit it for all its worth

He's earned that call. He stays away with a tailing fastball and changeups, and occasionally comes inside to keep the hitters honest. If he has a ton of ground ball outs, its not because the defense is brilliant, its because guys are constantly trying to pull the pitch on the outside corner. Glavine sticks to his game plan. When he gets in trouble is when teams actually decide to take what is given to them, by going up the middle and the other way, while at the same time being ready to capitalize on any mistake inside. He will occasionally leave one out over the plate, but often he gets away with it because the hitters are diving out across; all they can do is foul it off or get fisted. To me, Glavine has been a consistently great pitcher, not because he has outstanding stuff, but because he understands the art of pitching and how to use what he does have.

[RuthMayBond]

Lordy..I'm agreeing with EH...I don't know what to do here...this is a first...

But isn't your top pitcher ever Maddux?

[The Big C]

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that Glavine is a product of a certain environment. But even if he is, so what? That shouldn't discount the success he had. And he has had HoF level success. Just because he played on good teams we're going to say "okay, none of his stats count because his team was consistently very good." That's pure bull. The goal is to win games, and Glavine has been very successful at that for a long, long time. That, atleast to me, is the definition of what a Hall of Fame pitcher should be.

[SABR Matt]

But isn't your top pitcher ever Maddux?

he dropped to 7th recently...and even though he was a Brave, he didn't need his Braveishness to be great...PCA sees a huge difference between Glavine and Maddux.

[SABR Matt]

Or who played in the 20's


No doubt Atlanta has had great defenses. I can't believe that Matt actually said Brian Jordan was an all-time great outfielder, but in any case; I think Glavine's defense has less to do with his success than his approach/ability does.

His approach has been to feed off the hitter's aggressiveness, and in this era, a better approach can't be found. It certainly hasn't hurt him that his outside corner extends 3 inches, but I credit him for A) being consistent enough to eventually get that call B) being talented and smart enough to exploit it for all its worth

He's earned that call. He stays away with a tailing fastball and changeups, and occasionally comes inside to keep the hitters honest. If he has a ton of ground ball outs, its not because the defense is brilliant, its because guys are constantly trying to pull the pitch on the outside corner. Glavine sticks to his game plan. When he gets in trouble is when teams actually decide to take what is given to them, by going up the middle and the other way, while at the same time being ready to capitalize on any mistake inside. He will occasionally leave one out over the plate, but often he gets away with it because the hitters are diving out across; all they can do is foul it off or get fisted. To me, Glavine has been a consistently great pitcher, not because he has outstanding stuff, but because he understands the art of pitching and how to use what he does have.

Jordan was an all-time great *DEFENSIVE*...outfielder. Not an alltime great all around outfielder.

And the fielding metrics I have access to all agree he was in his prime a fantastic fielder.

[flash143817]

So should the same "Brave Effect" apply to Maddux? His ERA+ and overall numbers have been much better in Atlanta than in the bookends of his career in Chicago. This could be just that he was pitching his natural peak years in Atlanta, but it could have boosted his peak higher than it would have been.

It is almost uncanny how journeyman pitchers seemed to always have career years in Atlanta (to my chagrin). Glad I'm not the only one to notice that.

He is most definitely a better pitcher than Glavine across the board, but he still relies on that same type of approach that Glavine does, but not to the same extreme. I currently rank Maddux in the top 10 all time, but I wonder if he deserves a hit for all the built in advantages to being a Braves pitcher. I currently have him 9th.

[SABR Matt]

If you don't even think about contexts, Maddux in among the top 3 or 4 pitchers of all time....right with Clemens.

Because of the way he pitches, I have him 7th instead. I have no question that he's a top ten pitcher all time...he's good enough that he didn't need the Braves effect, but I concede it could have helped him a bit.

Seriously thuogh...go through Braves' rotations and look how many marginal guys suddenly had breakthroughs in ATL.

[flash143817]

If you don't even think about contexts, Maddux in among the top 3 or 4 pitchers of all time....right with Clemens.

Because of the way he pitches, I have him 7th instead. I have no question that he's a top ten pitcher all time...he's good enough that he didn't need the Braves effect, but I concede it could have helped him a bit.

Seriously thuogh...go through Braves' rotations and look how many marginal guys suddenly had breakthroughs in ATL.

Pete Smith, Steve Avery, Mike Remlinger, Chris Reitsma, Kent Mercker, John Thomson, Chris Hammond, Darren Holmes, Damian Moss....


Wow, I knew the Braves were ridiculous with their pitching luck, but that's incredible. I think it's finally all coming back to them though this year.

[SABR Matt]

You forgot Charlie Liebrandt, Mike Bielecki, Denny Neagle, and Mike Hampton

All of those pitchers (including the ones you listed) had major career years with the Braves and failed to duplicate said performances anywhere else consistently.

[baseballPAP]

That's not true. There are a lot of things about a pitcher that the ERA stat misses, while triple crown stats basically perfectly encompass a hitter's skill.

Ummmmm....what?
If that statement truly makes sense to you EH, you are quite possibly beyond help.

[baseballPAP]

Tom Glavine? A 1.30 WHIP and 5.35 K/9? Color me unimpressed. When will people realize that all of the Braves pitchers of the last fifteen years are 15% talent and 85% their environment?

And then you follow it up with something that makes perfect sense.....

[baseballPAP]

Good, I'll return the favor. There is nothing to learn from a garbage spewing 14 year old who has never played, watched, or read about baseball history in any real depth.

Such hostility. If posting here is so irritating, especially when a 14 year old is getting the better of you by holding his cool, why bother csh?

[baseballPAP]

He's in over his head here, has very little actual baseball knowledge and experience, and has no place pontificating to everyone incessantly (which he does).

That statement is truly ridiculous.

[538280]

Absolutely there's a big difference between Glavine and Maddux. It's apparent to me, at least. Glavine doesn't do all that much except for leave it up to the defense, he doesn't do all that much to control the game himself. Maddux, by almost never giving up an HR, never walking anyone, and striking out some batters (not a ton, but far more than Glavine), is a much better pitcher. You don't have to look past the SO/BB ratios (3.36 for Maddux, 1.76 for Glavine) to see that this is true. There's a big difference between them.

[Yankwood]

You do have a tendency to come off like a closed minded stat freak.

I second that emotion. All those specialty numbers just kind of kill ...the......thread.........make..us....drowz-z-z-z-z-y.........