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Welcome to the Ultimate Quest for Candidates! This thread will have the second poll in this project, choosing the best candidates for the Hall of Fame from the MLB stars of the 1930’s. You will be asked to vote for your top SIX (6) players. The poll will close five weeks after it opens.
I’m asking voters not to peek at the results of the voting until after they’ve cast their ballot. I would hope that voters are capable of independently assessing the candidates without worrying about who the consensus is favoring.
The threads in this project will always be posted a few days before the poll is added. This is done in order to encourage research and discussion of the candidates. I believe (paraphrasing Socrates) that the unexamined ballot is not worth casting. This also gives you a little time to make the case for a candidate not listed who you think deserves to be on the ballot (although you should sign up as a consultant if you really want to be involved in this aspect of the project).
If someone wants to open a separate thread to focus on one of these candidates, go for it; we already see that a lot on this forum. All of these players are worthy of discussion, because the worst candidates here are on a par with the worst players in the Hall.
I expect that everyone is familiar with Baseball-Reference.com and Baseballprospectus.com. These are essential sites for researching a player’s statistical record. I’ve also inserted links to each player’s bio at the SABR Bioproject or Wikipedia.
We will be judging players by the same criteria that the Hall of Fame uses:
“voting shall be based upon the individual's record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game.”
So everything counts, their lifetime achievements on and off the field, along with their character and other intangibles.
Below are the players we think are the top 18 candidates whose careers centered in the 1930’s. About half of them are affected by credits or demerits for WW2. Basic data are shown for each.
Bold - increased
Underlined - decreased
Pos – primary position(s)
BJ – rank at his position in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2002)
Win Shares – shown are career total and best 3 years
WARP3 – from Baseball Prospectus; shown are career total and best 3 years
Other – O’Doul was instrumental in the development of baseball in Japan. He is still an icon in San Francisco, where he played and managed for many years.
Some other things to be aware of:
1) Bill James’ rankings emphasize players’ peak years; this results in long steady careers being rated lower than what may seem right.
2) Win shares during WW2 play are discounted: 3% for 1942, 6% for 1943, 9% for 1944, and 12% for 1945. YMMV. Camilli, Clift, Johnson and Kuhel lost both career and peak WS; Derringer and Harder have small career deductions. Players are also conservatively credited for missed play due to military service. Bartell and Bridges have additional WARP and WS for time lost in 1944-45.
3) You are free to credit players with minor league or foreign league play. I have not attempted this, but the guys at the Hall of Merit have. Camilli, Johnson and O’Doul are three players who may have lost productive years due to being held out of MLB by powers beyond their control.
I’m asking voters not to peek at the results of the voting until after they’ve cast their ballot. I would hope that voters are capable of independently assessing the candidates without worrying about who the consensus is favoring.
The threads in this project will always be posted a few days before the poll is added. This is done in order to encourage research and discussion of the candidates. I believe (paraphrasing Socrates) that the unexamined ballot is not worth casting. This also gives you a little time to make the case for a candidate not listed who you think deserves to be on the ballot (although you should sign up as a consultant if you really want to be involved in this aspect of the project).
If someone wants to open a separate thread to focus on one of these candidates, go for it; we already see that a lot on this forum. All of these players are worthy of discussion, because the worst candidates here are on a par with the worst players in the Hall.
I expect that everyone is familiar with Baseball-Reference.com and Baseballprospectus.com. These are essential sites for researching a player’s statistical record. I’ve also inserted links to each player’s bio at the SABR Bioproject or Wikipedia.
We will be judging players by the same criteria that the Hall of Fame uses:
“voting shall be based upon the individual's record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game.”
So everything counts, their lifetime achievements on and off the field, along with their character and other intangibles.
Below are the players we think are the top 18 candidates whose careers centered in the 1930’s. About half of them are affected by credits or demerits for WW2. Basic data are shown for each.
Code:
Pos BJ Player Name Win Shares WARP3 Car WS Adj Pk WS Adj Car W3 Adj 6 #37 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Bartell"]Dick Bartell[/URL] ([B]266[/B]: 28-24-21) ([B]109.6[/B]: 10.6-10.3-9.8) +14 +6.0 8 #13 [URL="http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=78&pid=973"]Wally Berger[/URL] (241: 36-33-31) (69.5: 9.8-9.7-9.0) 1 #77 [URL="http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=807&pid=1553"]Tommy Bridges[/URL] ([B]241[/B]: 26-22-20) ([B]88.6[/B]: 9.1-7.6-7.2) +16 +6.6 3 #29 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolph_Camilli"]Dolph Camilli[/URL] ([U]222[/U]: 29-28-[U]27[/U]) (73.6: 10.9-9.8-9.6) -2 -1 8/9 #55 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Chapman_%28baseball_player%29"]Ben Chapman[/URL] (233: 23-22-22) (71.9: 7.8-6.7-6.5) 5 #37 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlond_Clift"]Harlond Clift[/URL] ([U]213[/U]: 25-[U]23[/U]-23) (80.0: 12.7-11.7-8.9) -3 -1 1 --- [URL="http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1034&pid=3511"]Paul Derringer[/URL] ([U]228[/U]: 26-25-24) (75.4: 8.6-7.8-7.0) -3 1 #40 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wes_Ferrell"]Wes Ferrell[/URL] (233: 35-32-28) (83.1: 13.6-11.4-10.7) 1 #92 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Harder"]Mel Harder[/URL] ([U]232[/U]: 27-27-24) (73.9: 10.0-9.7-8.3) -2 9 #50 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Herman"]Babe Herman[/URL] (232: 32-26-26) (66.8: 9.9-8.9-7.8) 7 #31 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Johnson_%28MLB_outfielder%29"]Bob Johnson[/URL] ([U]280[/U]: 29-[U]28[/U]-[U]25[/U]) (97.8: 10.1-9.8-8.9) -7 -4 3 #64 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Kuhel"]Joe Kuhel[/URL] ([U]237[/U]: 26-[U]22[/U]-21) (61.7: 7.7-7.0-5.9) -6 -3 1 --- [URL="http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=17&pid=8485"]Red Lucas[/URL] (194: 26-23-23) (63.9: 9.2-8.7-7.5) 4 #24 [URL="http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1045&pid=10228"]Buddy Myer[/URL] (258: 33-24-23) (81.4: 10.7-10.7-6.7) 7 #52 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefty_O%27Doul"]Lefty O'Doul[/URL] (144: 33-31-22) (41.3: 10.9-10.4-5.7) 1 --- [URL="http://thedeadballera.com/Obits/Root.Charlie.Obit.html"]Charlie Root[/URL] (223: 23-22-21) (68.8: 7.3-6.9-6.4) 3 #38 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Trosky"]Hal Trosky[/URL] (195: 28-27-25) (50.6: 8.0-8.0-7.7) 1 #44 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Warneke"]Lon Warneke[/URL] (220: 31-29-26) (72.3: 10.5-9.6-8.1)
Underlined - decreased
Pos – primary position(s)
BJ – rank at his position in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2002)
Win Shares – shown are career total and best 3 years
WARP3 – from Baseball Prospectus; shown are career total and best 3 years
Other – O’Doul was instrumental in the development of baseball in Japan. He is still an icon in San Francisco, where he played and managed for many years.
Some other things to be aware of:
1) Bill James’ rankings emphasize players’ peak years; this results in long steady careers being rated lower than what may seem right.
2) Win shares during WW2 play are discounted: 3% for 1942, 6% for 1943, 9% for 1944, and 12% for 1945. YMMV. Camilli, Clift, Johnson and Kuhel lost both career and peak WS; Derringer and Harder have small career deductions. Players are also conservatively credited for missed play due to military service. Bartell and Bridges have additional WARP and WS for time lost in 1944-45.
3) You are free to credit players with minor league or foreign league play. I have not attempted this, but the guys at the Hall of Merit have. Camilli, Johnson and O’Doul are three players who may have lost productive years due to being held out of MLB by powers beyond their control.
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