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Yes/ No/ Maybe Hall of Fame, 1991 election

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  • #16
    Players
    Pete Rose – Yes

    Sam Rice – Yes

    Dave Concepcion – Maybe
    Yutaka Enatsu – Yes
    Graig Nettles – Yes

    Darrell Evans – Maybe
    Bobby Grich – Yes
    Tommy John – Maybe
    Bob Boone – No
    Bill Buckner – No
    Cesar Cedeno – Maybe
    Doug DeCinces – No
    John Denny – No
    Bob Forsch – No
    Ron Guidry – No
    Dennis Leonard – No
    Chris Speier – No
    Frank White – No


    Contributors
    Lew Burdette – No
    Bob Davids – No
    Bowie Kuhn – No
    Billy Martin – No

    Comment


    • #17

      Players

      Pete Rose – NO

      Sam Rice – NO

      Dave Concepcion – NO
      Yutaka Enatsu – Abstain
      Graig Nettles – YES

      Darrell Evans – YES
      Bobby Grich – YES
      Tommy John – YES
      Bob Boone – NO
      Bill Buckner – NO
      Cesar Cedeno – NO
      Doug DeCinces – NO
      John Denny – NO
      Bob Forsch – NO
      Ron Guidry – NO
      Dennis Leonard – NO
      Chris Speier – NO
      Frank White – NO


      Contributors

      Lew Burdette – NO
      Bob Davids – NO
      Bowie Kuhn – NO
      Billy Martin – MAYBE
      .


      19th Century League Champion
      1900s League Champion
      1910s League Champion

      1930s League Division Winner
      1950s League Champion
      1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
      1960s League Division Winner
      1970s League Champion
      1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
      1980s League Champion
      All Time Greats League Champion

      Comment


      • #18
        We have a quorum
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • #19
          Players
          Pete Rose – Yes

          Sam Rice – Yes

          Dave Concepcion – Maybe
          Yutaka Enatsu – Yes
          Graig Nettles – Yes

          Darrell Evans – Yes
          Bobby Grich – Yes
          Tommy John – Yes
          Bob Boone – No
          Bill Buckner – No
          Cesar Cedeno – Maybe
          Doug DeCinces – No
          John Denny – No
          Bob Forsch – No
          Ron Guidry – Maybe
          Dennis Leonard – No
          Chris Speier – No
          Frank White – No


          Contributors
          Lew Burdette – No
          Bob Davids – Maybe
          Bowie Kuhn – No
          Billy Martin – No
          Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
          http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

          Comment


          • #20
            Less than two days left in this election
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • #21
              We have inducted Yutaka Enatsu. Bobby Grich, and Graig Nettles. Only two players are being carried over to the next election: S Rice and T John.

              I'll post the official results (in percentages of the vote) after the usual reminder than in the first two years, maybes don't count as the half yes, half no they will after those years. As a result, the percentage totals may be well short of 100%.

              First the players"
              ...
              Code:
               
              % yes % no Player
              50 50 Rose, Pete
              ….
              60 40 Rice, Sam (reinstated)
              ……..
              30 70 Concepcion, Dave
              75 25 Enatsu, Yutaka
              85 15 Nettles, Graig
              ……..
              30 50 Evans, Darrell
              80 20 Grich, Bobby
              50 20 John, Tommy
              0
              0 70 Boone, Bob
              0 90 Buckner, Bill
              0 60 Cedeno, Cesar
              0 100 DeCinces, Doug
              0 100 Denny, John
              0 100 Forsch, Bob
              10 70 Guidry, Ron
              0 100 Leonard, Dennis
              0 100 Speier, Chris
              0 90 White, Frank
              .....
              Now the contributors
              ....
              Code:
               
              % yes % no Contributor
              0 100 Burdette, Lew
              20 50 Davids, Bob
              10 90 Kuhn, Bowie
              20 60 Martin , Billy
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                Only two players are being carried over to the next election: S Rice and T John.
                Glad we got rid of that cad Rose.
                .


                19th Century League Champion
                1900s League Champion
                1910s League Champion

                1930s League Division Winner
                1950s League Champion
                1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                1960s League Division Winner
                1970s League Champion
                1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                1980s League Champion
                All Time Greats League Champion

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                  Glad we got rid of that cad Rose.
                  I will respectfully disagree

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I am deeply conflicted on Rose. He's kind of a Jekyll and Hyde.

                    I'm glad the potential for a flame war over him is eliminated so long as he remains off the ballot, and I'm glad that for a while I don't have to be reminded how exceptionally selfish and uncaring he could be in pursuit of his wants.
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                      I don't have to be reminded how exceptionally selfish and uncaring he could be in pursuit of his wants.
                      Something that (a) is hardly unique to Pete Rose among baseball players, (b) doesn't show up in his performance on the field of play, and (c) should have no bearing whatsoever on an assessment of the greatness of that performance. There are plenty of people who I find repulsive as human beings for one reason or another. I try to separate my distaste for unlikeable or unsavory people from their achievements in sports or otherwise. I have been saddened that some people - I'm not lumping you, Jim, in with them - can't even be bothered to attempt to separate their evaluation of baseball performance with their ideas of what constitutes being a good or moral person. Pete Rose didn't regularly participate in drunken orgies or show up to games drunk. He wasn't a racist. He didn't assault fans in the stands. He played his heart out and was a model teammate and ballplayer that generations of fans applauded and emulated. His off-the-field conduct is not baseball conduct and he is an unsympathetic figure alleged to have acted deplorably in his personal life, it's his personal life. As has been mentioned ad infinitum on these boards, the purpose of these projects is to identify the greatest players in history. We are not holding an induction ceremony. Pete Rose will never know that he was named in the "Yes/No/Maybe Hall of Fame" on www.baseball-fever.com. We're not bestowing an "honor" upon the man so people can rest easy on their delicate consciences.

                      Heck, I have voted in every potential election - primary, general or otherwise - since I was old enough to exercise the franchise and there hasn't been one time I didn't hold my nose over at least one candidate I pulled the lever for. Some people around here need to put their big boy pants on, swallow hard, and show some consistency in their application of their "character" clauses. For every Rose being bounced from the greatest ever rolls over stuff like this, there sure aren't many guys without those allegations being given the same amount of credit to their cases.

                      I, too, am tired of seeing Rose's name come up in the news, but more alarming than unsubstantiated allegations of bad behavior committed forty years ago is the misapplication of analysts' personal moral qualms to the question of whether an individual was a great baseball player.

                      For the sake of clarity, let me state here that, while I disagree with their conclusion, people who believe Rose's actions (as a gambler) negatively impacted his team's success, or damaged the sport at-large, are not what I'm talking about above.

                      While the issue of Pete Rose is dead-and-buried in this project now, I certainly hope people will reconsider whether or not they are applying an unreasonable standard on their evaluation and analysis of baseball greatness.
                      Last edited by Chadwick; 02-18-2018, 02:31 PM.
                      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Let me add one more insight here - and this should be obvious to us all - but this Rose case bears directly on the fundamental question of what a hall of fame is. What is our purpose in this, or any similar project?

                        To my mind, and others are free to disagree, but the purpose of a hall of fame is to recognize the most accomplished individuals in a particular field of endeavor. In a baseball hall of fame, that recognition is extended primarily to the best baseball players, but also (often) to baseball managers, baseball executives, and others who made significant contributions to the sport of baseball.

                        That was the original purpose - discussed widely in the press at the time - at the founding of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. The inclusion of the character clause in 1945, to honor the idiosyncratic wishes of the late Commissioner Landis, was nothing more than rhetorical fluff which has only attained the patina of substance through decades of simply being tucked away within the voting guidelines, largely ignored as it has been throughout that time.

                        The Pro Football Hall of Fame has never had such a clause and it is widely understood by voters that they are considering on-field performance. Ray Lewis was elected to that institution just weeks ago despite having been charged with murder, lying to police about the murder and eventually pleading to obstruction of justice charges. Lewis' behavior in the whole incident was self-serving and he sought to cover up the murder in order to avoid implicating himself in it and salvaging his career. Pete Rose (for one) was never involved in a murder or sought to cover it up. Yet Lewis was ushered into his respective hall of fame unabashedly and with open arms.

                        I would argue that this shouldn't be unique to football and that, in this case, they have it right and Cooperstown does not. If you have a problem with Lewis' behavior - illegal and immoral though it was - none of that had a bearing on what Lewis accomplished on the field of play. And the hall of fame recognizes the best of the best in athletes, not as human beings as moral actors.

                        If an individual can't abide someone in their hall of fame because the guy is a sleazebag, that's fine, but then admit that your personal hall of fame isn't a personal baseball hall of fame. It's a personal shrine to your favorite players, or to guys you deem the "good guys" of the sport. Maybe you don't want to collect Pete's baseball cards, or seek his autograph, or even be in the same room as the man. That's fine and you're entitled to your disgust. But (IMO) a hall of fame isn't about whether you like the player or condone his choices in his personal life. I'm sure I'd find many professional athletes sleezy by what I consider ethical conduct. That doesn't mean they are any less of a hitter, pitcher or fielder though.

                        And that's really what a baseball hall of fame is about. It's about how well someone played the game, not how well he lived his life.

                        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Gambling is a very serious issue for a sport for very good reasons, as sport depends on the idea of honest competition. Rose may or may no have crossed into Joe Jackson territory on this issue, but if he didn't, he wasn't too far from it. If it warped his judgment as a manager, that's an extremely serious offense. His ong history of lying on the subject further detracts from his cause. His pedophilia, which he virtually admitted with an exceptionally weak and unpersuasive denial (which included saying one girl was 16 when he met her, but that he didn't bed her for two years) that would test credulity even without his history of lying about the gambling charge. Pete sued for defamation over the charge, but when all this hit the news, he wound up withdrawing the suit, whicb says an awful lot. His involvement with the gambling made me leery of supporting him, but I made the excuses for him you are now. I can't stomach adding sexual abuse of children to the things I'm closing my eyes to. I'm reluctant to use the character clause far any purpose, but the overall picture of Pete Rose is that supporting him is saying the only thing that matters is winning==qnd I don't buy that.

                          My stance on PEDs isn't really related to the character clause, IMHO. If there's sufficient evidence he was HOF caliber without the juice, )(and there must be solid evidence of usage), the guy qualifies for me. The only ones I have trouble accepting are those who appear may well have become serious candidates by virtue of pharmaceuticals. That's a test of talent rather than character..

                          I am quite comfortable with those choices, notwithstanding your arguments.
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                            Pete Rose didn't regularly participate in drunken orgies or show up to games drunk. He wasn't a racist. He didn't assault fans in the stands.
                            But he did commit statutory rape by having sex with underage girls. I have a copy of the Dowd report here. Havbe you read it?

                            I don't see how anybody could read that and want this bum in the hall.
                            Last edited by SavoyBG; 02-18-2018, 04:42 PM.
                            .


                            19th Century League Champion
                            1900s League Champion
                            1910s League Champion

                            1930s League Division Winner
                            1950s League Champion
                            1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                            1960s League Division Winner
                            1970s League Champion
                            1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                            1980s League Champion
                            All Time Greats League Champion

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                              But he did commit statutory rape by having sex with underage girls. I have a copy of the Dowd report here. Havbe you read it?

                              I don't see how anybody could read that and want this bum in the hall.
                              Because great baseball players belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Period. Go build yourself a shrine to the Gandi's of the world if you want, but don't pretend its a baseball hall of fame when you're making moral judgments about personal behavior rather than evaluating baseball skill and performance.
                              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                                Because great baseball players belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Period. Go build yourself a shrine to the Gandi's of the world if you want, but don't pretend its a baseball hall of fame when you're making moral judgments about personal behavior rather than evaluating baseball skill and performance.
                                What you said above is when it comes to the Hall of Fame, all that matters is winning. If winning is all that matters, at the very least we are encouraged to turn a blind eye to anything else. Like it or not, the Hall serves the function of being a place to highlight the good things about the sport. Truth is, if they inducted Rose in these times of #MeToo it would be a PR disaster that would hurt the Hall and probably baseball. It is fortunately rare that there are issues that even have such a dramatic effect, but it would be folly for the Hall (as opposed to the more ephemeral internet imitators) to go full speed ahead with such a plan. Sport is about more than just winning and losing, though it obviously has a large central role. IMHO there have to be exceptions based upon recognition of legitimate threats to the health and well-being of the sport itself. Besides, do those whose actions are that potentially toxic to the game deserve to be honored by the game?
                                Last edited by jalbright; 02-20-2018, 02:40 AM.
                                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                                Comment

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