Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Kenny and Omar

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Kenny and Omar

    I don't think either of these guys are Hall worthy now, nor will they ever be, but I think they deserve some consideration:

    Kenny Lofton

    Omar Vizquel

    Kenny - he might reach 600 stolen bases which is more rare than 300 wins or 3000 hits or 500 HR. And he's doing it in an era in which stealing has substantially decreased. Plus, he's not a bad hitter. Didn't he lead the majors last year in batting average for anyone with at least 150 AB? I'm not sure about this one. He could reach 2500 hits. I really don't know too much else about Lofton to add anything.

    Omar - best fielding % ever for a SS. He might wind up having played more games at SS than any other player in history, and he could reach 2500 hits. Throw in the gold gloves and the fact that he helped the Indians to the postseason a number of times, and he's got to earn some consideration for the Hall. I know it's tough when his contemporaries are Tejada, Jeter, A-Rod, and Cal Ripken.

    I'd be surprised if anyone on this site would consider either of these players future Hall of Famers, but how close are they and do you think they'll be one and done by the voters, barely hang on like Dale Murphy and Dave Concepcion, or will they get substantial support like Andre Dawson and Lee Smith?

  • #2
    Neither Omar or Kenny should sniff the Hall; both fall outside the gray area of consideration.

    Of course, there are a few players from those Indians teams who merit strong consideration.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

    Comment


    • #3
      Runs Created Above Position

      MLB Center Fielders, 1991-2005
      544 Ken Griffey Jr.
      392 Jim Edmonds
      354 Bernie Williams
      223 Kenny Lofton
      186 Brady Anderson
      166 Ray Lankford
      154 Ellis Burks
      119 Johnny Damon
      117 Steve Finley
      110 Carlos Beltran

      MLB Shortstops, 1989-2005
      590 Alex Rodriguez
      443 Barry Larkin
      356 Derek Jeter
      308 Nomar Garciaparra
      177 Cal Ripken Jr.
      149 Jay Bell
      145 John Valentin
      125 Jeff Blauser
      121 Miguel Tejada
      108 Rafael Furcal
      ....
      8 Omar Vizquel (28th!!)
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Chancellor
        Runs Created Above Position

        MLB Center Fielders, 1991-2005
        544 Ken Griffey Jr.
        392 Jim Edmonds
        354 Bernie Williams
        223 Kenny Lofton
        186 Brady Anderson
        166 Ray Lankford
        154 Ellis Burks
        119 Johnny Damon
        117 Steve Finley
        110 Carlos Beltran

        MLB Shortstops, 1989-2005
        590 Alex Rodriguez
        443 Barry Larkin
        356 Derek Jeter
        308 Nomar Garciaparra
        177 Cal Ripken Jr.
        149 Jay Bell
        145 John Valentin
        125 Jeff Blauser
        121 Miguel Tejada
        108 Rafael Furcal
        ....
        8 Omar Vizquel (28th!!)
        I'm not sure how you can say that Vizquel falls outside the gray area of consideration when he was recently considered hall worthy by two separate espn writers. I don't have linked to the articles but they are out there if you care to look for them.

        As for the Runs created above replacement, why don't you attempt to measure Mike Piazza's hall worthiness by looking at his ability to throw out baserunners while you are at it. I'm sure you can make a case that Benito Santiago is more hall worthy using that type of logic.
        If the metaphore isn't clear, what I'm pointing out is that last time I checked Vizquel wasn't being considered for the hall due to his offensive prowess in the same way that Piazza isn't a hall lock because of his defensive prowess.

        Comment


        • #5
          Omar's defense is not good enough to be hall worthy

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Naliamegod
            Omar's defense is not good enough to be hall worthy
            David Schoenfield of ESPN.com disagrees. Here is what he has to say on the matter:

            "The way I see it, the cynical old-timers who hate all the pumped-up modern-day sluggers will vote for Omar, a symbol of the good old days when baseball was pure, when Hall of Famers played for the love of the game, when you actually had to be a good fielder to make a major-league team!

            Does he deserve it? The obvious comparison, of course, isn't to his power-hitting contemporaries, but to The Wizard, Ozzie Smith, another light-hitting glove magician.

            First, the hitting stats:

            OMAR VS. OZZIE
            Player Hits Runs HR RBI AVG OBP SLG SB
            Ozzie 2460 1257 28 793 .262 .337 .328 580
            Omar 2248 1175 68 748 .275 .341 .359 332


            Overall, pretty even. Both started out as terrible hitters (Ozzie hit .211 with 27 RBI in 1979, while Omar couldn't crack the .250 barrier until his fourth season) and eventually became good enough to post above-average OPS marks despite their lack of power. Ozzie became a little better at the plate, nine times posting an adjusted OPS of 90 or better; Omar has done that six times. Both were even traded early in their careers in lopsided deals (the Padres acquired Garry Templeton for Smith, while the Mariners acquired Felix Fermin and Reggie Jefferson for Vizquel).

            In two other categories, Ozzie holds a more significant edge:

            Gold Gloves:

            Omar: 9
            Ozzie: 13

            All-Star appearances:

            Omar: 3
            Ozzie: 15

            Ozzie is probably the greatest fielder at any position, ever. He was enormously popular with the fans. Vizquel only made three All-Star Games, but look who he was competing against: Ripken, Rodriguez, Jeter, Garciaparra and Tejada. Ozzie was battling Hubie Brooks and Rafael Ramirez for starting spots.

            Vizquel might not be Ozzie, but that doesn't mean he won't make Cooperstown. He has the flair and reputation that go beyond numbers, and that should be enough to persuade the voters."

            That was all written before Omar won his 10th gold glove this year.

            Here is what ESPN's Steve Phillips said about Omar Vizquel:

            "In the steroid era of baseball, we have been consumed by the home run. Vizquel is not a power hitter, but he is a power fielder.

            Ozzie Smith, a Hall of Famer, had a .978 fielding percentage for his career. Smith is arguably the best fielding shortstop ever to play the game. Vizquel's career fielding percentage is .983. Vizquel made only three errors in 156 games in 2000 and had four seasons in which he played 150 games or more and had single-digit errors. Smith only did that once. Vizquel's offensive numbers are on par with Smith's and in some categories are better. Yes, Vizquel is a Hall of Famer."

            Comment


            • #7
              Pine Tar - even before I read that article, the first thing in my mind about Omar was: if Ozzie got in, Omar probably should too.

              Ozzie's the greatest defensive SS ever, and for that he should've gotten in. However, it's not just the stats, but the flair and flash with which he played his position. That and his popularity made him a HOF lock. Since Omar lacks the flash and popularity, it may take him awhile, or he may never get in.
              Last edited by torez77; 02-18-2006, 09:11 PM.
              Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

              Comment


              • #8
                While Omar is one of the best defensive shortstops ever, how does that defense compare to those shortstops who were so much better offensively and just a little worse defensively?

                The BBWAA may elect him because of the Gold Gloves and D, but I don't think he's worthy.
                A lot of people say this honor validates my career, but I didn't work hard for validation. I didn't play the game right because I saw a reward at the end of the tunnel. I played it right because that's what you're supposed to do, play it right and with respect. If this validates anything, it's that learning how to bunt and hit and run and turning two is more important than knowing where to find the little red light at the dug out camera. - Ryne Sandberg

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by E.Banks#14
                  While Omar is one of the best defensive shortstops ever, how does that defense compare to those shortstops who were so much better offensively and just a little worse defensively?

                  The BBWAA may elect him because of the Gold Gloves and D, but I don't think he's worthy.
                  The first person that comes to mind in Alan Trammell. He is far superior offensively and many would say he was just as good as Omar defensively (I am not one of those persons). I think the answer to this is that Trammell should be in the hall as well. Just because he may or may not be more hall worthy than Omar, shouldn't change Omar's hall worthiness.

                  The other thing that seems to be helping Omar is that many of the shortstops that were making up the Golden Era of shorthstops from the 90's are no longer playing short. Alex Rodriquez plays 3b, Nomar plays everywhere but short, so that leaves Jeter, Larkin, Ripken, and Tejada as the only ones left over.

                  There have also been discussions of Tejada moving to 3b, so we may end up with only jeter, Larkin, and Ripken playing a majority of their careers at SS. As a result, we may only have these three as likely hall short stops who played in the 90's and therefore Omar should have an even better shot, given that he will have played his whole career at short. IMO

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pine Tar

                    "The way I see it, the cynical old-timers who hate all the pumped-up modern-day sluggers will vote for Omar, a symbol of the good old days when baseball was pure, when Hall of Famers played for the love of the game, when you actually had to be a good fielder to make a major-league team!

                    This is a legitimate argument for Larkin, for Vizquel it might just be the Hall cutting off its nose to spite its face.
                    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Having the highest FP% stat in history is not really a notable accomplishment since A.) The average FP% has gotten higher and higher in the years and B.) its not that good of a statistic in the first place.

                      Omar was a great defensive SS. So was Dave Concepcion who isn't in the hall of fame and I find about as good as Omar ATLEAST. People mention Ozzie but they really don't compare that well IMO. Ozzie's numbers are better in context of his league and was a great baserunner to add to his value.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        kenny Lofton - Hell no.

                        As for Omar vizquel - He might have had a shot if he was born 20 years earlier, but a good-glove, light-hitting shortstop isn't worth as much as it used to be. For instance, in 17 years, he's been an All-Star just three times. He didn't do much with the bat despite playing in some good hitters' parks. Only one of those years did he have an OPS+ over 100. He has a career OPS under .700, no power at all and while he stole some bases, he also got thrown out a lot.
                        His only Hall of Fame credential is his defense, but most people who study these sort of things think his fielding was overstated.
                        He's aging pretty well, though. His walks and his stolen base percentage increased as he got older, so if he can stick around for a few more years and close in on 3,000 hits, he has a chance.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pine Tar
                          David Schoenfield of ESPN.com disagrees. Here is what he has to say on the matter:

                          "The way I see it, the cynical old-timers who hate all the pumped-up modern-day sluggers will vote for Omar, a symbol of the good old days when baseball was pure, when Hall of Famers played for the love of the game, when you actually had to be a good fielder to make a major-league team!

                          Does he deserve it? The obvious comparison, of course, isn't to his power-hitting contemporaries, but to The Wizard, Ozzie Smith, another light-hitting glove magician.

                          First, the hitting stats:

                          OMAR VS. OZZIE
                          Player Hits Runs HR RBI AVG OBP SLG SB
                          Ozzie 2460 1257 28 793 .262 .337 .328 580
                          Omar 2248 1175 68 748 .275 .341 .359 332


                          Overall, pretty even. Both started out as terrible hitters (Ozzie hit .211 with 27 RBI in 1979, while Omar couldn't crack the .250 barrier until his fourth season) and eventually became good enough to post above-average OPS marks despite their lack of power. Ozzie became a little better at the plate, nine times posting an adjusted OPS of 90 or better; Omar has done that six times. Both were even traded early in their careers in lopsided deals (the Padres acquired Garry Templeton for Smith, while the Mariners acquired Felix Fermin and Reggie Jefferson for Vizquel).

                          In two other categories, Ozzie holds a more significant edge:

                          Gold Gloves:

                          Omar: 9
                          Ozzie: 13

                          All-Star appearances:

                          Omar: 3
                          Ozzie: 15

                          Ozzie is probably the greatest fielder at any position, ever. He was enormously popular with the fans. Vizquel only made three All-Star Games, but look who he was competing against: Ripken, Rodriguez, Jeter, Garciaparra and Tejada. Ozzie was battling Hubie Brooks and Rafael Ramirez for starting spots.

                          Vizquel might not be Ozzie, but that doesn't mean he won't make Cooperstown. He has the flair and reputation that go beyond numbers, and that should be enough to persuade the voters."

                          That was all written before Omar won his 10th gold glove this year.

                          Here is what ESPN's Steve Phillips said about Omar Vizquel:

                          "In the steroid era of baseball, we have been consumed by the home run. Vizquel is not a power hitter, but he is a power fielder.

                          Ozzie Smith, a Hall of Famer, had a .978 fielding percentage for his career. Smith is arguably the best fielding shortstop ever to play the game. Vizquel's career fielding percentage is .983. Vizquel made only three errors in 156 games in 2000 and had four seasons in which he played 150 games or more and had single-digit errors. Smith only did that once. Vizquel's offensive numbers are on par with Smith's and in some categories are better. Yes, Vizquel is a Hall of Famer."
                          He's 100% wrong.

                          Vizquel couldnt hold smith's jock.

                          Ozzie has a career range factor of 5.03 compared to the league average of 4.10. Omar has a career range factor of 4.42 compared to the league average of 4.12.
                          Ozzie was .93 over league average. Omar was .30 not even close at all. Omar only had one year of at least 450 assists. Ozzie had 11 and 8 of those were 500+ assists. omar had only one year of at least 250 putouts. Ozzie had 7.

                          Also - HOF Standards batting (average HOFer 50)
                          Ozzie 35.0
                          Omar 33.9

                          HOF Monitor (likely HOFer > 100)
                          Ozzie 142.5
                          Omar 89.5

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dontworry
                            He's 100% wrong.

                            Vizquel couldnt hold smith's jock.

                            Ozzie has a career range factor of 5.03 compared to the league average of 4.10. Omar has a career range factor of 4.42 compared to the league average of 4.12.
                            Ozzie was .93 over league average. Omar was .30 not even close at all. Omar only had one year of at least 450 assists. Ozzie had 11 and 8 of those were 500+ assists. omar had only one year of at least 250 putouts. Ozzie had 7.

                            Also - HOF Standards batting (average HOFer 50)
                            Ozzie 35.0
                            Omar 33.9

                            HOF Monitor (likely HOFer > 100)
                            Ozzie 142.5
                            Omar 89.5
                            I wonder how much of a era difference may account for the lesser number of assists that Omar has compared to Ozzie. Since he played in the steroid era, and less teams play "small ball", there would be less opportunities for short stops to get outs and assists.

                            Also Omar's Hall monitor is 91.5 right now, not 89.5, and is likely to go up to at least 121.5 considering he will get 15 more points for playing another 225 games at short and then will get another 15 points for getting 199 more hits to get to 2500. These are likely to occur since he has two more years on his contract.

                            As for hall standards, if he can somehow manage to score 5 runs and get 99 hits this year he will have a higher hall standard (batting) than Ozzie Smth.

                            I think I lot of people aren't remembering that Omar is still playing and is still productive. One can only assume that having Barry Bonds hitting further down the order this year will help Omar this year as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pine Tar
                              I wonder how much of a era difference may account for the lesser number of assists that Omar has compared to Ozzie. Since he played in the steroid era, and less teams play "small ball", there would be less opportunities for short stops to get outs and assists.

                              Also Omar's Hall monitor is 91.5 right now, not 89.5, and is likely to go up to at least 121.5 considering he will get 15 more points for playing another 225 games at short and then will get another 15 points for getting 199 more hits to get to 2500. These are likely to occur since he has two more years on his contract.

                              As for hall standards, if he can somehow manage to score 5 runs and get 99 hits this year he will have a higher hall standard (batting) than Ozzie Smth.

                              I think I lot of people aren't remembering that Omar is still playing and is still productive. One can only assume that having Barry Bonds hitting further down the order this year will help Omar this year as well.
                              Omar was a good shortstop for a long time. Ozzie was the best defensive player ever at the most important defensive position. There are several ways to show this, particularly defensive Win Shares and Baseball Prospectus's defensive Rate stat. Both show Smith to be the greatest ever at the position and Vizquel to be merely above average.
                              Ozzie was an All-Star fifteen times in 19 seasons. Vizquel was an All-Star three times.
                              Ozzie was mentioned in MVP voting six times, and finished second once. Vizquel got MVP votes just once, edging Matt Stairs and John Jaha for 16th place in the 1999 voting.

                              Also keep in mind that ozzie played his entire career in a pitcher's park during a pitcher friendly era, and he was still able to put up decent numbers.

                              Vizquel hit in one of the best hitter's park during one of the best hitter's era.

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X