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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dontworry
    Omar was a good shortstop for a long time. Ozzie was the best defensive player ever at the most important defensive position. There are several ways to show this, particularly defensive Win Shares and Baseball Prospectus's defensive Rate stat. Both show Smith to be the greatest ever at the position and Vizquel to be merely above average.
    Ozzie was an All-Star fifteen times in 19 seasons. Vizquel was an All-Star three times.
    Ozzie was mentioned in MVP voting six times, and finished second once. Vizquel got MVP votes just once, edging Matt Stairs and John Jaha for 16th place in the 1999 voting.

    Also keep in mind that ozzie played his entire career in a pitcher's park during a pitcher friendly era, and he was still able to put up decent numbers.

    Vizquel hit in one of the best hitter's park during one of the best hitter's era.
    Listen, I'm not saying that Omar is/was better than Ozzie, but I guess I would say that he in fact could hold Ozzie's jock if he were forced to.h The fact that he was a 15 time all-star and isn't the best defensive player of all time doesn't mean Omar shouldn't get elected to the hall as well.

    I would say that Omar was/is just about as good a hitter as Ozzie. Their OPS+ are pretty much the same. I mean, neither one really did much at the plate. I mean Omar's biggest strength as a hitter is his ability to put down sacrifice bunts! Nonetheless Omar, has aged well, and as a result looks like he will compile some pretty noteworthy career hitting total; 2500 hits, 1400 runs, 400 doubles, over 2300 games pllayed at short. These career total will help his hall chances.

    I do think that more attention needs to be given to differences in eras when it comes to short stops. Many others have pointed out that Omar didn't get as many assists and put outs, as Ozzie and other notable short stops of yesteryear, but I really don't think that has as much to do with his performance, as it does with the fact that short stops were less involved in games in the homer happy 90's and 00's than they were in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

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    • #17
      FRAA (Fielding Runs Above Average)

      Ozzie 236
      Omar 54
      Bordick 65
      Sanchez 130

      Omar got alot of gold gloves he didn't deserve. He got noticed for his bare hand grabs. He wasn't the best ss year in year ot with glove. He has no shot.

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      • #18
        The only way either Kenny L or Omar V is getting into the Hall of Fame is to buy a ticket, as you or I do.
        1968 and 1984, the greatest ever.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Tigerfan1974
          The only way either Kenny L or Omar V is getting into the Hall of Fame is to buy a ticket, as you or I do.
          Good One!

          Comment


          • #20
            Kenny Lofton is somewhat close, but I'd call him just outside the Hall.

            Vizquel isn't even close. His hitting, as Chancellor showed, really isn't even very good for a shortstop. Ozzie Smith over his career I believe was something like 50 or so RCAP. Omar is at 8. Omar has a .246 EqA, Ozzie is at .262. It really isn't close

            Ozzie Smith was probably the best fielding SS ever, which also makes him the greatest fielder ever, at any position. Omar Vizquel was certainly very good and had an awesome rep, but I can't help but think he has been overrated by his flashiness. I've seen him play, he does make a real lot of nice looking plays. But, I am yet to see a statistical system that sees him on a level of other all time great shorstops, like Ozzie, Wagner, Maranville, etc.

            Defensive Win Shares rates all three of those guys at A+, Omar is a B.

            BP has Omar 54 runs above average. Very good, but not really great. Ozzie is at 236, Wagner is at 268, and Maraville is at 167.

            Rabbit Maranville really is a good comparison to Omar. Both are not really that good hitters even for their position. But, there are key differences there. Maranville had the type of longevity where it's hard to keep him out. How many players have played more than 2670 games and aren't in the Hall? Not too many. Omar is yet to garner that type of longevity and it doesn't appear he will.

            Maranville had a defensive rep much like Omar does today. But, Maranville's glove excellence has been documented by statistics. They all show him to be one of the greatest fielders ever at his position. Vizquel doesn't have that documentation.

            Plus, Maranville was a great personaility, one of the most popular players in his day. I don't think this should have a real lot to do with Hall credentials, but it is the Hall of FAME after all. Vizquel has done nothing to make him particularly notable. Maranville would be a well known player even it he wasn't inducted to the HOF, and his legacty would probably still last today.

            Maranville is an example of a player like Omar who can still be a good Hall candidate. As it is, I see Maranville as borderline. I don't see how Omar can be anywhere near him in Hall worthiness.


            I feel that in order for a player with the paltry hitting ability of Omar to get in, he needs to have proof of his defensive wizardry from reputation and statistical measures. Defensive metrics have all reached the verdict Omar just is not as good as his rep. Sorry, but when they all line up to say the same thing it's hard to dispute them.
            538280
            Prophet of Rage
            Last edited by 538280; 02-20-2006, 10:27 AM.

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            • #21
              1200th post!!!

              Originally posted by 538280
              How many players have played more than 2670 games and aren't in the Hall? Omar is yet to garner that type of longevity and it doesn't appear he will.
              Five. And are you actually saying that Omar needs to play 2700 games to get into the Hall? Is that you prerequisite? Maranville is one of the few who lasted that long, and probably shouldn't have. And actually, Vizquel has already played 100 more games at SS than Maranville - and he's still going strong! And if he can play a couple more seasons, then he will be up there with the longevity factor, right up with Maranville, and seeing as how he IS very good defensively, and he DOES have 10 GG's (including 1 last year), and a better hitter than Maranville, and you say Maranville is just outside, then Vizquel has a legitimate chance.

              Listen to this, if Vizquel plays 2 more full seasons (150 games), and gets 150+ hits, then he will have the same number of hits as Maranville, with nearly 80 fewer games! And if he gets 150 hits next year, he will be just a couple hits short of Ozzie, in around 130 fewer games!

              Actually, of the three - Ozzie, Maranville, and Vizquel, Vizquel is the only one to have more hits than games played!

              Ozzie - 2573 games - 2460 hits
              Maranville - 2670 games - 2605 hits
              Vizquel - 2290 games - 2301 hits

              I'm still not convinced that he should go into the HOF, but I do think he has a chance, and right now, I wouldn't protest it, and every game he plays just increases his chances
              Edgartohof
              Registered User
              Last edited by Edgartohof; 02-20-2006, 11:26 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Edgartohof
                Five. And are you actually saying that Omar needs to play 2700 games to get into the Hall? Is that you prerequisite? Maranville is one of the few who lasted that long, and probably shouldn't have. And actually, Vizquel has already played 100 more games at SS than Maranville - and he's still going strong! And if he can play a couple more seasons, then he will be up there with the longevity factor, right up with Maranville, and seeing as how he IS very good defensively, and he DOES have 10 GG's (including 1 last year), and a better hitter than Maranville, and you say Maranville is just outside, then Vizquel has a legitimate chance.
                Vizquel doesn't need 2700 games to be in the HOF, but with his level of performance while he's been playing he does. He will be right up there with Maranville in longevity if he plays about three more full seasons. That isn't a sure thing right now. I guess it might happen.

                I have no doubts Omar is a very good shortstop. But, is he an all time great? Almost all of the other shortstops with reps like Omar (including Maranville) have statistical evidence to back up their rep. Defensive metrics have shown Vizquel to be very good in the field, but hardly an all time great. I'm sorry, but the lack of statistical evidence to back up his defensive rep is a huge hole in Omar's case.

                Anyway, Maranville in my opinion is marginal as it is. What really makes me think he is at least an okay selection is the fame factor I mentioned earlier. He was extremely famous in his time as a fan favorite and one of the most popular players in the game. I don't really think that's very significant, but it does count for at least a little bit with HOF credentials (not necessarily in ranking players). What has Vizquel done to be particularly famous? The bottom line is, Maranville was known in his time by even non baseball fans. The same is definitely not true of Vizquel.

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                • #23
                  I have some sympathy to both players' candidacies, and will give them due consideration when they eventually appear on a ballot.

                  However, it's hard to imagine them being among the top 4-5 unenshrined players at their respective positions (CF and SS).

                  I think Vizquel's odds are better than Lofton's. The HOF has been far kinder to defensive specialist shortstops with adequate offense and longevity than it has to leadoff hitting centerfielders with excellent speed, defense, and on-base skills, but little power.

                  At the same time, I'd posit that Lofton's actually the better player.

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                  • #24
                    Neither of these guys are clear-cut HOFers. Of the two, I think Vizquel's chances are much better, and he's not a lock.

                    Vizquel has a good chance if he makes it to 2,500 hits. He's suffered due to the emergence of hitting shortstops, but one of them (Nomar) has moved off the position and has had injuries, and another one (A-Rod) is now at 3B. A third (Jeter) is constantly maligned for his D (although Jeter is a HOFer IMO) and a fourth (Tejada) is still early in his career. Vizquel's defense has been criticized as his assist total is not at Ozzie's level, but Vizquel is a career AL man (until last year) where they have the DH and fewer ground balls.

                    Lofton needs to get his BA over .300. That's tough at his age. He also needs to get closer to 2,500 hits. His career is very truncated, and most people with such truncated careers usually don't make the Hall.
                    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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                    • #25
                      What the Hall should be???

                      We all should keep in mind it is the HALL OF FAME. As said it should be reserved for the best of the best. Not for the very good players or even excellent players, but for the GREATEST players. Hence, my litmus test for the current players is; try to project yourself 100 years into the future. You go into the HOF, if you think you might think who is this guy? And then you look at that guys numbers, and say hmmmm whys he here? Then the guy should not be in.

                      I was always a fan of baseball growing up. I knew about the huge names, of course. A few years ago when I was dating my future wife (who happens to be a huge baseball fan...thats why she's my wife), she'd ask me about guys and I would not be sure. I went out (actually I work at a bookstore) and bought a baseball desk reference. So for a number of months the book sat in my "throne room". Although, I had always heard Mel Ott was a great player it wasn't till looking at his numbers I said dang, he was great. I see why he is in the HOF.

                      That said, I don't think Omar or Kenny should be in.

                      The people that get in should (imho) be the dominant force at their position for at least 5 years and preferably 7 years. By dominant I mean top 3 in the whole league (AL&NL) at their position for that 5-7yrs. They should go into the autumn of their careers playing top half of their position well, and getting those "magic" numbers or at least be close. I also think more consideration should go to championship preformances (doing it when it counts most should count more). So if anything, I think a few players should be booted out ie. Ozzie Smith (he got in on his TWIB- this week in baseball backflip alone). It is the Hall of Fame, not the hall of pretty good.

                      The players I see that should be in that aren't: Jack Morris, Andre Dawson, if you keep Ryne Sandberg in Lou Whitaker should be in too.

                      If I think of more I will add....and thats my humble opinion.
                      tigers527
                      90% mental 1/2 Physical
                      Last edited by tigers527; 05-05-2006, 08:59 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
                        Neither of these guys are clear-cut HOFers. Of the two, I think Vizquel's chances are much better, and he's not a lock.

                        Vizquel has a good chance if he makes it to 2,500 hits. He's suffered due to the emergence of hitting shortstops, but one of them (Nomar) has moved off the position and has had injuries, and another one (A-Rod) is now at 3B. A third (Jeter) is constantly maligned for his D (although Jeter is a HOFer IMO) and a fourth (Tejada) is still early in his career. Vizquel's defense has been criticized as his assist total is not at Ozzie's level, but Vizquel is a career AL man (until last year) where they have the DH and fewer ground balls.
                        Although, I qouted more, my only opinion is on Jeter. I just wanted to leave the context. With just 1,900+ hits, he has not hit even close to the magic numbers. I doubt he'll get the homers (500) he has 169 as of 2006, or RBI (1500) he has 763 as of 2006. So not being one of the top 3 SS in MLB for the 5-7 years, as I stated IMHO you need to do to be sure fire HOFer. Heck, the best SS on the Yankees plays 3B. He needs those 3000 hits, or at least 2700, but he is already 11 years in. I am just saying hes not a shoe in. Although, the Mr Clutch doesn't hurt. IMHO

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Chancellor
                          Neither Omar or Kenny should sniff the Hall; both fall outside the gray area of consideration.

                          Of course, there are a few players from those Indians teams who merit strong consideration.
                          As someone who saw a lot of those Indians, I would not vote for Lofton or Vizquel for the Hall (if I had a vote). I would, however, vote yes for Jim Thome and Albert Belle.

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                          • #28
                            No on both of them.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tigers527
                              Although, I qouted more, my only opinion is on Jeter. I just wanted to leave the context. With just 1,900+ hits, he has not hit even close to the magic numbers. I doubt he'll get the homers (500) he has 169 as of 2006, or RBI (1500) he has 763 as of 2006. So not being one of the top 3 SS in MLB for the 5-7 years, as I stated IMHO you need to do to be sure fire HOFer. Heck, the best SS on the Yankees plays 3B. He needs those 3000 hits, or at least 2700, but he is already 11 years in. I am just saying hes not a shoe in. Although, the Mr Clutch doesn't hurt. IMHO
                              I don't think Jeter needs 3,000 hits, or even 2,700 to get into the HOF. Especially if he keeps his BA over .300 and stays at SS.

                              If Jeter shifts positions, it won't help him, but he's got enough power in his mix to where he's be a candidate for the HOF if he were a corner OF, and he will always have his years at SS. Jeter attracts a lot of emotional arguments about his place in history, but he's at a point where he might well go into the HOF if he blew out his knee tomorrow and his career ended.

                              It's not a positive for Vizquel that he has to add to his career at this stage of the game to improve his chances.
                              "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                              NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Do you know who is the player with most hits as SS?
                                You have to suffer a revolution to know what are you talking about.

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