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Kenny and Omar

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  • Dontworry
    replied
    kenny Lofton - Hell no.

    As for Omar vizquel - He might have had a shot if he was born 20 years earlier, but a good-glove, light-hitting shortstop isn't worth as much as it used to be. For instance, in 17 years, he's been an All-Star just three times. He didn't do much with the bat despite playing in some good hitters' parks. Only one of those years did he have an OPS+ over 100. He has a career OPS under .700, no power at all and while he stole some bases, he also got thrown out a lot.
    His only Hall of Fame credential is his defense, but most people who study these sort of things think his fielding was overstated.
    He's aging pretty well, though. His walks and his stolen base percentage increased as he got older, so if he can stick around for a few more years and close in on 3,000 hits, he has a chance.

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  • Naliamegod
    replied
    Having the highest FP% stat in history is not really a notable accomplishment since A.) The average FP% has gotten higher and higher in the years and B.) its not that good of a statistic in the first place.

    Omar was a great defensive SS. So was Dave Concepcion who isn't in the hall of fame and I find about as good as Omar ATLEAST. People mention Ozzie but they really don't compare that well IMO. Ozzie's numbers are better in context of his league and was a great baserunner to add to his value.

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  • digglahhh
    replied
    Originally posted by Pine Tar

    "The way I see it, the cynical old-timers who hate all the pumped-up modern-day sluggers will vote for Omar, a symbol of the good old days when baseball was pure, when Hall of Famers played for the love of the game, when you actually had to be a good fielder to make a major-league team!

    This is a legitimate argument for Larkin, for Vizquel it might just be the Hall cutting off its nose to spite its face.

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  • Pine Tar
    replied
    Originally posted by E.Banks#14
    While Omar is one of the best defensive shortstops ever, how does that defense compare to those shortstops who were so much better offensively and just a little worse defensively?

    The BBWAA may elect him because of the Gold Gloves and D, but I don't think he's worthy.
    The first person that comes to mind in Alan Trammell. He is far superior offensively and many would say he was just as good as Omar defensively (I am not one of those persons). I think the answer to this is that Trammell should be in the hall as well. Just because he may or may not be more hall worthy than Omar, shouldn't change Omar's hall worthiness.

    The other thing that seems to be helping Omar is that many of the shortstops that were making up the Golden Era of shorthstops from the 90's are no longer playing short. Alex Rodriquez plays 3b, Nomar plays everywhere but short, so that leaves Jeter, Larkin, Ripken, and Tejada as the only ones left over.

    There have also been discussions of Tejada moving to 3b, so we may end up with only jeter, Larkin, and Ripken playing a majority of their careers at SS. As a result, we may only have these three as likely hall short stops who played in the 90's and therefore Omar should have an even better shot, given that he will have played his whole career at short. IMO

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  • E.Banks#14
    replied
    While Omar is one of the best defensive shortstops ever, how does that defense compare to those shortstops who were so much better offensively and just a little worse defensively?

    The BBWAA may elect him because of the Gold Gloves and D, but I don't think he's worthy.

    Leave a comment:


  • torez77
    replied
    Pine Tar - even before I read that article, the first thing in my mind about Omar was: if Ozzie got in, Omar probably should too.

    Ozzie's the greatest defensive SS ever, and for that he should've gotten in. However, it's not just the stats, but the flair and flash with which he played his position. That and his popularity made him a HOF lock. Since Omar lacks the flash and popularity, it may take him awhile, or he may never get in.
    Last edited by torez77; 02-18-2006, 08:11 PM.

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  • Pine Tar
    replied
    Originally posted by Naliamegod
    Omar's defense is not good enough to be hall worthy
    David Schoenfield of ESPN.com disagrees. Here is what he has to say on the matter:

    "The way I see it, the cynical old-timers who hate all the pumped-up modern-day sluggers will vote for Omar, a symbol of the good old days when baseball was pure, when Hall of Famers played for the love of the game, when you actually had to be a good fielder to make a major-league team!

    Does he deserve it? The obvious comparison, of course, isn't to his power-hitting contemporaries, but to The Wizard, Ozzie Smith, another light-hitting glove magician.

    First, the hitting stats:

    OMAR VS. OZZIE
    Player Hits Runs HR RBI AVG OBP SLG SB
    Ozzie 2460 1257 28 793 .262 .337 .328 580
    Omar 2248 1175 68 748 .275 .341 .359 332


    Overall, pretty even. Both started out as terrible hitters (Ozzie hit .211 with 27 RBI in 1979, while Omar couldn't crack the .250 barrier until his fourth season) and eventually became good enough to post above-average OPS marks despite their lack of power. Ozzie became a little better at the plate, nine times posting an adjusted OPS of 90 or better; Omar has done that six times. Both were even traded early in their careers in lopsided deals (the Padres acquired Garry Templeton for Smith, while the Mariners acquired Felix Fermin and Reggie Jefferson for Vizquel).

    In two other categories, Ozzie holds a more significant edge:

    Gold Gloves:

    Omar: 9
    Ozzie: 13

    All-Star appearances:

    Omar: 3
    Ozzie: 15

    Ozzie is probably the greatest fielder at any position, ever. He was enormously popular with the fans. Vizquel only made three All-Star Games, but look who he was competing against: Ripken, Rodriguez, Jeter, Garciaparra and Tejada. Ozzie was battling Hubie Brooks and Rafael Ramirez for starting spots.

    Vizquel might not be Ozzie, but that doesn't mean he won't make Cooperstown. He has the flair and reputation that go beyond numbers, and that should be enough to persuade the voters."

    That was all written before Omar won his 10th gold glove this year.

    Here is what ESPN's Steve Phillips said about Omar Vizquel:

    "In the steroid era of baseball, we have been consumed by the home run. Vizquel is not a power hitter, but he is a power fielder.

    Ozzie Smith, a Hall of Famer, had a .978 fielding percentage for his career. Smith is arguably the best fielding shortstop ever to play the game. Vizquel's career fielding percentage is .983. Vizquel made only three errors in 156 games in 2000 and had four seasons in which he played 150 games or more and had single-digit errors. Smith only did that once. Vizquel's offensive numbers are on par with Smith's and in some categories are better. Yes, Vizquel is a Hall of Famer."

    Leave a comment:


  • Naliamegod
    replied
    Omar's defense is not good enough to be hall worthy

    Leave a comment:


  • Pine Tar
    replied
    Originally posted by Chancellor
    Runs Created Above Position

    MLB Center Fielders, 1991-2005
    544 Ken Griffey Jr.
    392 Jim Edmonds
    354 Bernie Williams
    223 Kenny Lofton
    186 Brady Anderson
    166 Ray Lankford
    154 Ellis Burks
    119 Johnny Damon
    117 Steve Finley
    110 Carlos Beltran

    MLB Shortstops, 1989-2005
    590 Alex Rodriguez
    443 Barry Larkin
    356 Derek Jeter
    308 Nomar Garciaparra
    177 Cal Ripken Jr.
    149 Jay Bell
    145 John Valentin
    125 Jeff Blauser
    121 Miguel Tejada
    108 Rafael Furcal
    ....
    8 Omar Vizquel (28th!!)
    I'm not sure how you can say that Vizquel falls outside the gray area of consideration when he was recently considered hall worthy by two separate espn writers. I don't have linked to the articles but they are out there if you care to look for them.

    As for the Runs created above replacement, why don't you attempt to measure Mike Piazza's hall worthiness by looking at his ability to throw out baserunners while you are at it. I'm sure you can make a case that Benito Santiago is more hall worthy using that type of logic.
    If the metaphore isn't clear, what I'm pointing out is that last time I checked Vizquel wasn't being considered for the hall due to his offensive prowess in the same way that Piazza isn't a hall lock because of his defensive prowess.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    Runs Created Above Position

    MLB Center Fielders, 1991-2005
    544 Ken Griffey Jr.
    392 Jim Edmonds
    354 Bernie Williams
    223 Kenny Lofton
    186 Brady Anderson
    166 Ray Lankford
    154 Ellis Burks
    119 Johnny Damon
    117 Steve Finley
    110 Carlos Beltran

    MLB Shortstops, 1989-2005
    590 Alex Rodriguez
    443 Barry Larkin
    356 Derek Jeter
    308 Nomar Garciaparra
    177 Cal Ripken Jr.
    149 Jay Bell
    145 John Valentin
    125 Jeff Blauser
    121 Miguel Tejada
    108 Rafael Furcal
    ....
    8 Omar Vizquel (28th!!)

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    Neither Omar or Kenny should sniff the Hall; both fall outside the gray area of consideration.

    Of course, there are a few players from those Indians teams who merit strong consideration.

    Leave a comment:


  • micsmith
    started a topic Kenny and Omar

    Kenny and Omar

    I don't think either of these guys are Hall worthy now, nor will they ever be, but I think they deserve some consideration:

    Kenny Lofton

    Omar Vizquel

    Kenny - he might reach 600 stolen bases which is more rare than 300 wins or 3000 hits or 500 HR. And he's doing it in an era in which stealing has substantially decreased. Plus, he's not a bad hitter. Didn't he lead the majors last year in batting average for anyone with at least 150 AB? I'm not sure about this one. He could reach 2500 hits. I really don't know too much else about Lofton to add anything.

    Omar - best fielding % ever for a SS. He might wind up having played more games at SS than any other player in history, and he could reach 2500 hits. Throw in the gold gloves and the fact that he helped the Indians to the postseason a number of times, and he's got to earn some consideration for the Hall. I know it's tough when his contemporaries are Tejada, Jeter, A-Rod, and Cal Ripken.

    I'd be surprised if anyone on this site would consider either of these players future Hall of Famers, but how close are they and do you think they'll be one and done by the voters, barely hang on like Dale Murphy and Dave Concepcion, or will they get substantial support like Andre Dawson and Lee Smith?

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