Kenny and Omar

[Chadwick]

Two wonderful players who have been such joy to watch for the past 15 years, but who neither belong in Cooperstown. If there were a Hall for the Very Good, they'd have my vote. No shame in that.

[RuthMayBond]

Jack Morris? absolutely belongs

Concepcion belongs

Based upon what?

[JimAbbott]

You bring up some interesting players. Lofton has some very solid numbers but it appears he will fall short. I like his .300 career avg, stolen bases and 107 triples. Too bad he's not over 2500 hits already and I'd say he'd get in. He's a borderline case that falls just short

Vizquel is very interesting. He is still going very strong and may well have a few good seasons left in him. He will need 2 more seasons like the current one to get in. If he does that then open the hall doors for the man

Dale Murphy: too bad his career suddenly went down the tubes. He was a great player but falls short

Dawson absolutely belongs in the hall with his 2774 hits 438 hr and 1591 rbi. he had better get in there

Lee Smith belongs in there with Sutter now inducted especially

I can see the argument for Whitaker given that Sandberg is in there but Lou wont make it but probably should be

Jack Morris? absolutely belongs

Concepcion belongs

[cavalier1968]

He's 100% wrong.

Vizquel couldnt hold smith's jock.

Ozzie has a career range factor of 5.03 compared to the league average of 4.10. Omar has a career range factor of 4.42 compared to the league average of 4.12.
Ozzie was .93 over league average. Omar was .30 not even close at all. Omar only had one year of at least 450 assists. Ozzie had 11 and 8 of those were 500+ assists. omar had only one year of at least 250 putouts. Ozzie had 7.

Also - HOF Standards batting (average HOFer 50)
Ozzie 35.0
Omar 33.9

HOF Monitor (likely HOFer > 100)
Ozzie 142.5
Omar 89.5

\

oh ozzie playin on easy bounce fake stuff too..........

Cav

[mtortolero]

Something we must think is how writers love to compare raw numbers without any normalization regarding eras or parks.
Right now Omar has 2449 hits (and counting, projecting to finnish with 2484 hits at the end of this season, as per his page on espn), with a great chance of another GG (really Adam Everett deserve it but Omar is his first runner-up) and with great chance of play other full season that can put him in 2650 hits then Omar looks not so far of a good chance to have a case at least for the writers with that number of hits.

And if you think that any argument can make a change in your mind, then see what I caught in the last chat of Rob Neyer in ESPN, someone who never shows love by Omar:

"Stan (West Des Moines, IA): If Omar Vizquel gets 2,800, is he a Hall of Famer?

Rob Neyer: I never thought I'd say this, but it's getting to the point where even I have to consider him as a serious candidate."

The best chance of Omar is keeping playing with his actual level and who knows if he can do it at least two seasons more, this thread could be retake at that time with other perspective.

[brett]

Not only was Ozzie's defense (and offense) better in the context of the time period but they had more of an impact on winning. There were about 8 runs scored per game in Ozzie's period and 10 for Omar's. In other words, saving a run was 25% more likely to end up making the difference in a game in Ozzie's period.

Still, Omar would be a lock if not for the recently emerging idea that he was greatly overrated on defense. I never considered that he was overrated on defense until I checked into this site, and everyone here seems to think that he gets too much credit for a great fielding percentage, and in reality has POOR range. I never though he had poor range, though his range factor IS poor. What do people think?

An offensively average SS with 9 legitimate gold gloves would be a lock.

I also don't get why people rate Roberto Alomar so low.

After a lot of evaluation, I have decided that Larkin and Biggio and probably Trammell should be in. They are not high level HOFers but they are pretty solidly not "un" HOFers.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I've been following these two this year and agree that both have added considerably to their chances. Actually, what they have shown me is that they both may be able to stick around for a couple more years and be productive.

Vizquel has added quite a bit to his hall chances this year. He has a good shot at getting his 11th gold glove. He has also batted MUCH better this year than his career average. He is actually near the top 10 in BA, hits, and stolen bases. He would also be helped if the Giants can find a way into the playoffs.

Vizquel has never had a dropoff as Lofton has, so his chances are better. I think, as I have said before, that Vizquel has the record for most games played at shortstop.

I can't think of a single SS that was a top fielder that had 2,500 hits and wasn't selected to the HOF.

Lofton will have to play two more years at full time play and hit .300 to make it. Lofton was once on a HOF pace, but he lost his power, became impatient at the plate, and dropped in both BA and walks. He's got no power now, but he's still valuable, and his impressive seasons in the 90s are a part of his record.

[Pine Tar]

Both of these guys have helped their HOF chances big time this year. Vizquel more so than Lofton.

Lofton got his BA back up to .300, a must if he is to have a shot. One bad year, however, and it goes back down. Lofton would need to keep it at .300 for two more years, and at his age, that's hard. He's lost his power, but he's stealing bases at a good clip. Plus, he's still a center fielder, a big plus.

Vizquel is hitting .308 at this writing and is going to be in a position where he will certainly pass 2,500 hits next year. He may already have the record for career games at shortstop. He has a chance at 3,000 hits, not a great chance, but a better chance than many.

I know people here resist believing this, but most shortstops with Omar Vizquel's array of accomplishments HAVE gone onto the HOF.

I've been following these two this year and agree that both have added considerably to their chances. Actually, what they have shown me is that they both may be able to stick around for a couple more years and be productive.

Vizquel has added quite a bit to his hall chances this year. He has a good shot at getting his 11th gold glove. He has also batted MUCH better this year than his career average. He is actually near the top 10 in BA, hits, and stolen bases. He would also be helped if the Giants can find a way into the playoffs.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Both of these guys have helped their HOF chances big time this year. Vizquel more so than Lofton.

Lofton got his BA back up to .300, a must if he is to have a shot. One bad year, however, and it goes back down. Lofton would need to keep it at .300 for two more years, and at his age, that's hard. He's lost his power, but he's stealing bases at a good clip. Plus, he's still a center fielder, a big plus.

Vizquel is hitting .308 at this writing and is going to be in a position where he will certainly pass 2,500 hits next year. He may already have the record for career games at shortstop. He has a chance at 3,000 hits, not a great chance, but a better chance than many.

I know people here resist believing this, but most shortstops with Omar Vizquel's array of accomplishments HAVE gone onto the HOF.

[mtortolero]

And Vizquel or Jeter could be the challengers for the mark.

[mtortolero]

I could be wrong (because he spent time at other positions early in his career), but I think it's Honus Wagner.

Something I am sure is that is not Honus:
He had 3415 hits in 2792 juegos but only play as SS in 1887 games. In his first four seasons he had 649 hits playing mainly as outfielder but any game as SS and that low his SS hits total to 2766 hits. The only Wagner's season splitted in retrosheet.org is 1911 and he had only 123 hits as SS and the other 35 in others possitions adjusting the total to 2731 hits. And if you look his last season, where he had 61 hits but only played 01 game as SS
(08/29/1917) then probably his SS total must be adjusted again to 2675-2680 hits. All this without adjust other season where he played others possitions beside SS.
Really with his average of hits by game his real total as SS must be about 2400 to 2500 hits and 900 to 100O hits in others possitions.

My question comes because as per my calculation the current milestone is hold by Luis Aparicio.

[Cougar]

I could be wrong (because he spent time at other positions early in his career), but I think it's Honus Wagner.

[mtortolero]

Do you know who is the player with most hits as SS?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Although, I qouted more, my only opinion is on Jeter. I just wanted to leave the context. With just 1,900+ hits, he has not hit even close to the magic numbers. I doubt he'll get the homers (500) he has 169 as of 2006, or RBI (1500) he has 763 as of 2006. So not being one of the top 3 SS in MLB for the 5-7 years, as I stated IMHO you need to do to be sure fire HOFer. Heck, the best SS on the Yankees plays 3B. He needs those 3000 hits, or at least 2700, but he is already 11 years in. I am just saying hes not a shoe in. Although, the Mr Clutch doesn't hurt. IMHO

I don't think Jeter needs 3,000 hits, or even 2,700 to get into the HOF. Especially if he keeps his BA over .300 and stays at SS.

If Jeter shifts positions, it won't help him, but he's got enough power in his mix to where he's be a candidate for the HOF if he were a corner OF, and he will always have his years at SS. Jeter attracts a lot of emotional arguments about his place in history, but he's at a point where he might well go into the HOF if he blew out his knee tomorrow and his career ended.

It's not a positive for Vizquel that he has to add to his career at this stage of the game to improve his chances.

[Taco De Muerte]

No on both of them.