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Is Trammel over Whitaker inappropriate? Is it racist?

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  • Is Trammel over Whitaker inappropriate? Is it racist?

    What are the cases for Trammel over Whitaker. Are they fair? The only thing I can think of regarding Trammel is that he may have been the best player in the AL in 1987. I was also a little surprised that Whitaker only got MVP votes once and made 5 all star teams while Trammel got votes 7 times and made 6 all star games.

    Whitaker played more games, had a higher OPS+, slugging percentage and on-base percentage,

  • #2
    Trammell peaked higher. Whitaker had a lot of his best rate seasons at the end of his career when he was playing under 140 games a year and may have been platooning.

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    • #3
      Yeah, Trammell was less consistent, but he has 6 or 7 great years scattered about, while Lou had maybe 2 great years. The hitting standards for shortstop are a bit less than for second basemen. WAR tells the story pretty well.
      6 WAR seasons: Whitaker 2, Trammell 6
      3.5 WAR seasons: Whitaker 15, Trammell 11

      Whitaker was good player for a long time, Trammell was an occassional star.

      Comment


      • #4
        It's a battle for sure, Tom Thress has Trammell edging Whitaker in his key stat, the basic version calls for a 229.8 to 216.4 gap:
        http://baseball.tomthress.com/Leaders/UberLeaders.php

        Valuation of defense one way or the other should tip the scales to either guy.

        Both benefit a bit by Tiger Stadium from an rrOPS+ perspective, Trammell losing ~2 wins and Whitaker ~3.5
        Contextually, Whitaker takes a leap forward with RE24 wins/clutch (+7.24 and +4.30) compared with Trammell (+1.42 and +1.20).

        PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HOF, get Lou Whitaker into the hall of fame while he can enjoy it!!!
        Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
        http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

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        • #5
          Racism is the boy who called wolf. When it really does exist, people don't see it, because they are numb to it being used as a reason for virtually everything.

          I really don't know if it is the case here, but it seems unlikely. Both should have been in years ago. Shortstop is more of a glamour position and VC elections now are a long process. hopefully Sweet Lou will get in soon.
          This week's Giant

          #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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          • #6
            It's definitely difficult to rationalize having one and not the other.
            3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

            "All of which makes perfect sense on paper, unless you have actually at any time in your life watched baseball being played." - The Commissioner

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            • #7
              It is odd, at best, that you mention racism as a possible reason in the thread title, but don't elaborate (much less suggest a need for the question at all) in the OP. More poignantly, the suggestion is as offensive as it is absurd unless you have some evidence that might point towards that as a remotely plausible explanation. So far the proof you've provided is a big fat zero and all we have to go on is that one particular inductee (Trammell) is white while one particular candidate (Whitaker) is black. It would be just as ridiculous to suggest that Vladimir Guerrero was elected, but not Larry Walker for the same reason. Where's the correlation between their election status and skin color? If one existed, that would be on you to prove before tossing such an incendiary charge out there.
              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                It is odd, at best, that you mention racism as a possible reason in the thread title, but don't elaborate (much less suggest a need for the question at all) in the OP. More poignantly, the suggestion is as offensive as it is absurd unless you have some evidence that might point towards that as a remotely plausible explanation. So far the proof you've provided is a big fat zero and all we have to go on is that one particular inductee (Trammell) is white while one particular candidate (Whitaker) is black. It would be just as ridiculous to suggest that Vladimir Guerrero was elected, but not Larry Walker for the same reason. Where's the correlation between their election status and skin color? If one existed, that would be on you to prove before tossing such an incendiary charge out there.
                I hesitated to include that, but I had friends who contended that it was "racist" and so I wanted to get opinions without prejudicing peoples answers by giving my opinion. I personally feel that accusations of racism are greatly overused and tend to dismiss them. I can't think of any other instance where I believe that a black player didn't get into the hall of fame versus a highly comparable white player who did.

                However it is not exactly the same as Guerrero versus Walker. They were exact contemporaries on the same team, they rank almost exactly the same place on many members rankings by position, and Whitaker had more games, a better on-base percentage, slugging percentage, more home runs, more WAR and a higher OPS+ and Whitaker was one and done in his original time on the ballot despite being probably the best second baseman in the AL in a 20 year period, and maybe the best in baseball for a decade, while Trammell could never make that claim at shortstop.

                In reality I just woke up with the prior conversation I had had in my mind and started typing while my morning coffee was kicking in. I see I spelled Trammell wrong in a couple of spots. Why does my spellcheck say that Trammel is no misspelled (but Trammell is?) Edit: Apparently trammel is a real word or two.

                I guess (ironic to my thread title) a better comparison would be to ask about Trammell versus someone like Buddy Bell who had a virtually identical career in terms of stats, relative stats, peak and dominance at his position (As Bell and Trammell really have no case as the best in baseball for any extended period of time). And a better comp contrast for Whitaker might be Larkin who had somewhat of a fragmented career.
                Last edited by brett; 06-14-2018, 07:18 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Both Trammel and Whitaker should have been in long ago. Racism does not play a role here. Historically, the HOF has been very bad at identifying the best second basemen. Also not in are Bobby Grich, Ross Barnes and WIllie Randolph. Struggling is Jeff Kent. Ryne Sandberg, an all time great struggled to get in. Alomar did not get in on the 1st ballot. Several second basemen got in via the VC.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by brett View Post

                    I hesitated to include that, but I had friends who contended that it was "racist" and so I wanted to get opinions without prejudicing peoples answers by giving my opinion. I personally feel that accusations of racism are greatly overused and tend to dismiss them. I can't think of any other instance where I believe that a black player didn't get into the hall of fame versus a highly comparable white player who did.
                    .
                    Oh come on

                    This is just so far off the track.
                    One is white and one is black, so your friends cried "racism?'

                    This week's Giant

                    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                      Oh come on

                      This is just so far off the track.
                      One is white and one is black, so your friends cried "racism?'
                      I was going to post simply whether there was justification to put in Trammell but not Whitaker as well as ask whether there had been a thread on that before. When I woke up I just added in the "is it racist" part because I had recently been told that is was and had not thought of it before and wondered if that was something that was "going around" that I was out of the loop on.

                      And again, its not just one is white and one is black. They share a lot in common and Whitaker comes out ahead on many traditional and sabermetric stats including:

                      Hits
                      HR
                      Runs scored
                      RBI
                      Slugging
                      On base%
                      WAR
                      OPS+
                      Last edited by brett; 06-14-2018, 08:09 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by brett View Post

                        I can't think of any other instance where I believe that a black player didn't get into the hall of fame versus a highly comparable white player who did.
                        Dick Allen has not gotten in, but several lesser white players have. His race definitely played a part in him having a bad reputation among the writers. Despite excellent WAR totals Willie Randolph has never been a a serious candidate, but similar players like Nellie Fox and Red Schoendienst are in. Maury Wills and Bert Campaneris have never been real serious candidates, but Rizzuto, Sewell, Jackson and Bancroft are in. Albert Belle was never a serious candidate, but Chuck Klein and Hack Wilson are in. Minnie Minoso is still waiting, but Heinie Manush and Joe Kelley are in. Vada Pinson is not in, but Richie Ashburn and Edd Roush are. Dave Parker is not in, but Enos Slaughter is. Reggie Smith is not in but Sam Rice is. Luis Tiant is not in but Bob Lemon is.


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                        • #13
                          Among the inductees who are considered to be mistakes, are ANY of them black?

                          .


                          19th Century League Champion
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                          1950s League Champion
                          1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                            Dick Allen has not gotten in, but several lesser white players have. His race definitely played a part in him having a bad reputation among the writers. Despite excellent WAR totals Willie Randolph has never been a a serious candidate, but similar players like Nellie Fox and Red Schoendienst are in. Maury Wills and Bert Campaneris have never been real serious candidates, but Rizzuto, Sewell, Jackson and Bancroft are in. Albert Belle was never a serious candidate, but Chuck Klein and Hack Wilson are in. Minnie Minoso is still waiting, but Heinie Manush and Joe Kelley are in. Vada Pinson is not in, but Richie Ashburn and Edd Roush are. Dave Parker is not in, but Enos Slaughter is. Reggie Smith is not in but Sam Rice is. Luis Tiant is not in but Bob Lemon is.

                            Many of those may be more the result of older generation players getting higher regard in baseball over more modern players. They are pretty good examples but I don't think any of them is a GLARING omission and also not being left off while lesser contemporaries got in. I was thinking about Reggie Smith generally being rated below contemporaries or even behind Garvey a couple of times in MVP races. White guys you mentioned probably shouldn't have gotten in in my opinion but I would put Whitaker over anyone you listed.

                            I also thought of Tiant versus Hunter, but it was the anomaly that was Hunter.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by brett View Post

                              I would put Whitaker over anyone you listed.
                              I think Minoso and Tiant are as deserving as Whitaker, and Minnie and Luis each have a much better narrative than Whitaker.

                              .


                              19th Century League Champion
                              1900s League Champion
                              1910s League Champion

                              1930s League Division Winner
                              1950s League Champion
                              1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                              1960s League Division Winner
                              1970s League Champion
                              1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                              1980s League Champion
                              All Time Greats League Champion

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