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  • #16
    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

    Dick Allen has not gotten in, but several lesser white players have. His race definitely played a part in him having a bad reputation among the writers. Despite excellent WAR totals Willie Randolph has never been a a serious candidate, but similar players like Nellie Fox and Red Schoendienst are in. Maury Wills and Bert Campaneris have never been real serious candidates, but Rizzuto, Sewell, Jackson and Bancroft are in. Albert Belle was never a serious candidate, but Chuck Klein and Hack Wilson are in. Minnie Minoso is still waiting, but Heinie Manush and Joe Kelley are in. Vada Pinson is not in, but Richie Ashburn and Edd Roush are. Dave Parker is not in, but Enos Slaughter is. Reggie Smith is not in but Sam Rice is. Luis Tiant is not in but Bob Lemon is.

    The liberal race baiter has arrived.

    So you are saying that in EVERY in one of your comparisions, the players who is out, is excluded because of racism?? (you won't answer, but you are implying that). And the white player who is in, was voted in ahead of the black player, based on racism. Even though Joe Sewell was voted in when Campineris was still playing??

    Let's play this little game. It's easy, just pick a HOFer then pick another player from a different race who should be in the hall ahead of them, and call it racism. what fun.

    Jim Rice is in, Larry Walker is not > racism

    Tony Perez is in Mark McGwire is not > racism

    Orlando Cepeda is in, Will Clark is not > racism

    Bobby Grich has more WAR than Jackie Robinson> racism

    Bill Dahlen has more WAR than Barry Larkin > racism

    Shery McGee has a higher JAWS rating than Willie Stargell > racism

    Jim Edmunds has a much higher WAR than Kirby Puckett > racism,

    Dwight Evans has a higher WAR and JAWS that Dave Winfield > racism

    Curt Schilling has a much higher WAR than Juan Marichal > racism


    Well that was fun. I sure made a point there.










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    • #17
      I hate whenever a black man gets a bum rap, some people insist on playing the race card. You see it in politics. You see it in sports. I suggest that even racism still exists, unfortunately, it is nonsense to suggest that everything that goes wrong for an African American is due to racism. The reason may have nothing at all to do with his race.
      That said, I find it unfortunate that Whitaker is not going in the HOF this year along with his two teammates, particularly the man with whom he has been forever linked. But does race have anything to do with the fact he is not? I don't know, but I would need to see some concrete evidence before I start believing it.
      27 World Championships
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      • #18
        I was disappointed that when I was pushing the NeL players to be included in Tyrus's All-Time Top Ten by Position Players thread (that used to be the biggest event here) I was accused of being a social justice warrior or that I felt guilty about being white. Savoy annoys me as much as he does anyone else here but I didn't think he was race baiting. His point didn't make any sense because the players careers didn't overlap and it's impossible to say how many factors are at play besides race. I understand where you're coming from. White people are constantly being put on the spot for the sins of the past nowadays. You don't want to hear people talk trash on everyone that has the same skin color as you for things that happened long ago and/or far away by people who probably aren't related to you. It's irritating. It makes me think about how terrible it must have been to be black in the past and sometimes, today.
        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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        • #19
          Originally posted by JR Hart View Post


          So you are saying that in EVERY in one of your comparisions, the players who is out, is excluded because of racism??
          No, I answered the post about not being able to think of any other cases where this may apply with some possible examples. Racism is not always overt and even conscious. I've heard announcers and writers for decades talk about black players with "great natural talent" and white players who are "hard working and hustling."

          White guys like Craig Counsell and David Eckstein are talked of as players with little talent but tremendous heart, while black guys like Bobby Bonds and Dick Allen are talked about as tremendous natural talents who did not want to put in the work to live up to their potential.


          Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

          The liberal race baiter has arrived.
          Not every Republican is a racist, but most racists are Republicans.

          .


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          • #20
            Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
            No, I answered the post about not being able to think of any other cases where this may apply with some possible examples. Racism is not always overt and even conscious. I've heard announcers and writers for decades talk about black players with "great natural talent" and white players who are "hard working and hustling."

            White guys like Craig Counsell and David Eckstein are talked of as players with little talent but tremendous heart, while black guys like Bobby Bonds and Dick Allen are talked about as tremendous natural talents who did not want to put in the work to live up to their potential.




            Not every Republican is a racist, but most racists are Republicans.
            The concept that anyone can tell that anyone else is subconsciously racist is preposterous. It's an incredibly dangerous concept and leads to witch hunts and government censorship on thought and speech like bill c-16 in Canada.
            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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            • #21
              You guys do realize that blacks were not allowed to play in major league baseball until just 70 years ago?

              There are some people on this board who are old enough to remember when MLB was all white. Does anybody really believe that racism that overt would just disappear completely 30-40 years later when black major leaguers were eligible for the hall of fame?

              During my lifetime I saw white and "colored" water fountains and bathrooms in many places. I saw police forces who were all white and would not hire blacks. There's still a big problem now with police and black citizens. People in my own extended family, Republicans of course, tell me that Michelle Obama is an ugly monkey, for instance. This was my aunt. My response to her was that she should look in the mirror sometime.

              .


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              • #22
                Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                The concept that anyone can tell that anyone else is subconsciously racist is preposterous.
                I think we are all subconsciously racist. We see black teenagers with their pants worn down low coming down the street and we are more worried about something happening than if we see white teenagers with purple hair and nose rings coming down the street.

                .


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                • #23
                  I'm kind of in a unique position with racism. I am white and Jewish, and was married to a black Baptist woman for 5 years, and have had other black girlfriends. Many times one of them would call about a job and have a good phone conversation, but when they showed up in person were told that the job was no longer available. I was a DJ for about 20 years from 1979 to 1995. Several times when I was playing in a club some black folks would come in, and the owner would come over and tell me not to play anything but rock and new wave until they left.

                  When my father heard I had a black girlfriend (my future wife) he told me that he never wanted to meet her, even if we got married.

                  I can cite dozens of other examples of overt racism that I have witnessed in my time.







                  .


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                  • #24
                    We as in white people? Why would any other race be any different?

                    Yea all that stuff sucks dude but that doesn't mean you should be applying those traits to all white people.
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                      We as in white people?
                      No, we as in people.

                      .


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                        No, I answered the post about not being able to think of any other cases where this may apply with some possible examples. Racism is not always overt and even conscious. I've heard announcers and writers for decades talk about black players with "great natural talent" and white players who are "hard working and hustling."

                        White guys like Craig Counsell and David Eckstein are talked of as players with little talent but tremendous heart, while black guys like Bobby Bonds and Dick Allen are talked about as tremendous natural talents who did not want to put in the work to live up to their potential.




                        Not every Republican is a racist, but most racists are Republicans.
                        Just more of your total BS. You never surprise.

                        Once again, you throw out the racism charge and then can't back up.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                          I think we are all subconsciously racist....
                          I agree with your posts about as often as there's a solar eclipse, but this is one of those times.

                          Just to put it in a baseball context, I remember watching the 1983 ALCS between Baltimore and the Chicago White Sox. At one point during a game, there was a brief snippet of an interview with the Orioles' Tito Landrum. Immediately thereafter, Al Michaels made a reference to "the well-spoken Tito Landrum", as if he was surprised an African American player could speak articulately. I can't imagine hearing that comment after an interview with a white player.
                          They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post

                            I agree with your posts about as often as there's a solar eclipse, but this is one of those times.

                            Just to put it in a baseball context, I remember watching the 1983 ALCS between Baltimore and the Chicago White Sox. At one point during a game, there was a brief snippet of an interview with the Orioles' Tito Landrum. Immediately thereafter, Al Michaels made a reference to "the well-spoken Tito Landrum", as if he was surprised an African American player could speak articulately. I can't imagine hearing that comment after an interview with a white player.
                            Or Al just thought that he was well spoken. I interview high scholl athletes on the radio. Some speak very well and some really struggle. I have commented to others how well spoken someone was and I never thought of race.
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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                              Just more of your total BS. You never surprise.

                              Once again, you throw out the racism charge and then can't back up.
                              Do you dent that most racists are Republicans? You guys have all of the white supremacists and neo-Nazis.
                              .


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post

                                I agree with your posts about as often as there's a solar eclipse, but this is one of those times.

                                Just to put it in a baseball context, I remember watching the 1983 ALCS between Baltimore and the Chicago White Sox. At one point during a game, there was a brief snippet of an interview with the Orioles' Tito Landrum. Immediately thereafter, Al Michaels made a reference to "the well-spoken Tito Landrum", as if he was surprised an African American player could speak articulately. I can't imagine hearing that comment after an interview with a white player.
                                Yes, more subtle racism.
                                .


                                19th Century League Champion
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